Just please make sure if you all decide to take action, it needs to be taken on a line item basis. When you say this “topic” has been flagged and are looked at closely, I assume that means you are considering editing or deleting it. As the person who started this topic, I think that would be extremely unfair. There was nothing whatsoever even remotely controversial or impolite in any way about my original post/topic or the very interesting and informative discussion that took place until one member begin disparaging this forum and all its members. I’m not a fan of censorship of any kind or the need to provide adults with a safe space without controversy, but if that is what is deemed appropriate then action should be directed to those making the statements you feel need to be censored to protect others, not removing an otherwise helpful and informative topic.
Don’t worry there is no plan to edit it. But I think people have made their respective positions clear on the disagreement above, so lets move on!
Fair enough…and let me do just that with a bit of an update. It is looking almost certain that copper was the culprit making my trees drop all their leaves. The reason I see this is because of an important discovery I made today. AS I’ve said, I have 2 separate orchards. One is a few feet from the field that was sprayed about the time my leaves began falling, and my other orchard is several hundred yards away and protected by my house and lots of huge hardwood trees. That second orchard wasn’t even hurt by the 2, 4-D drift a few years ago that went almost everywhere!
ANYWAY, I already said that the protected orchard still had leaves falling from peach and plums, so I was already pretty sure the neighbor wasn’t to blame for the fallen leaves in the orchard near him. But today I noticed that I had accidentally missed spraying glyco under 2 trees in the protect orchard. But guess what??? They are dropping leaves as well. So not only is it unlikely that my neighbors glyco spray would have made it to my protected orchard, it is also pretty evident that it wasn’t my own glyco spraying of weeds under my trees that was causing the leaf drop, since I have now discovered leaves are dropping from my protected trees that weren’t even sprayed underneath with glyco by me. So it almost has to be copper.
But I say almost because I want you all to help me be sure. Before we 100% decide it was copper, I have to tell you exactly what I sprayed my trees with so you all can help me decide if anything I sprayed besides copper could have defoliated my trees, or if perhaps the combination of 2 or more of these things could have interacted to cause the leaf drop. Here is what I sprayed about 5 days before leaf drop:
Copper (at about 1.5 tablespoon per gallon- more than the usual non-dormant amount)
Captan 50 wp (2 Tbl spoon per gal) equal to label recommendation
Eagle EW (1/3 to 1/2 tsp per gallon) equal or slightly more than label
Pinene II Sticker (1/2 tsp gal) equal to label
Imidan 70 WP (1 tbl spoon per gallon) equal to label
Vinegar (1/2 oz per gallon)
I know some of you may see some of this as unnecessary duplication, but I was using it on stone fruit, apples, grapes, and a few other things so different ingredients needed for different things. And still I concede there is some duplication here.
So, do you all think anything other than copper caused my leaf fall? Thank-you for your time on this.
I’m sure you used the vinegar to acidify the water to prevent captan and imidan degradation from alkaline hydrolysis. However, know that copper becomes more phytotoxic with the addition of an acidfier. It’s generally not recommended when spraying foliage with copper.
Copper is a little tricky when spraying foliage anyway. So I wouldn’t use any concentration above the non-dormant amount.
I didn’t know the fancy words for it (alkaline hydrolysis) ha. But yes, the purpose of the vinegar was to lower the ph of the water because I knew that doing so is widely reported to improve the effectiveness of both captan and imidan. I had no idea that it could increase phytotoxitity .
Thanks to this experience, I doubt I will ever use copper again past my usual copper and oil spray in late dormancy. This is the first time I’d done it. I really was just trying to see what affect it would have on a few of my problems- if any. (I’ve read it can help prevent peach leaf curl, brown rot, CAR, and even fire blight on apples). I wanted to see for myself if adding it to my usual spray items would help with any of these things. But loosing 75% of the leaves on trees is probably more harmful than any of the things I was trying to prevent! (Except brown rot which I’d already had a lot of success by using myclo and captan).
Anyway, at least I’ve learned something from all this, and so far it hasn’t cost me much more than leaves. I have to wonder how an almost leafless tree can support fruit and won’t be surprised if the fruit are smaller or not as sweet, but new growth is already replacing the old so hopefully it won’t be too had on things.
It can and does, as a dormant spray. At least Kocide does. I myself don’t use oil just copper and a pinene sticker. Has worked well. Pretty much the only reason I use copper is for peach leaf curl. I apply once a year as a dormant spray. It also will keep other spores off your trees, no doubt. I also use rainwater and mine is about 4.7-5.2 pH.
Once leaves form it is probably too late to treat for peach leaf curl.
Two weeks after copper spray and a day or two of rain. Still looks like the day I sprayed it. The leaves/flowers in the buds will not be exposed to copper. But this makes it impossible for peach leaf curl to take hold. Oil will wash off, pinene won’t. Some use both, I like this method myself. I use an oil in the fall dormant spray with lime-sulfur.
What is kind of ironic is copper was accepted as organic, although some are rethinking this.So is lime-sulfur. So it was not 2-4D or glyphosate but the organic copper that damaged your trees! Ha!! (I think Satin may be green!? )
That is really interesting, great information, and and matches my own experience. I had peach leaf curl in the past and once I started dormant copper and oil it almost completely disappeared- just a few leaves here and there. I love that photo too. I’m always amazed at how long my copper can be seen on my trees after I spray it in dormancy, and it is somewhat reassuring to see that blue color like can be seen in your photo. I have never done the lime-sulfur spray but I do read an awfully lot about that.
That just is not true, it’s fantastic undeniable excellent fruit, and Olpea’s peaches are nothing short of amazing. Mine too, I use chemicals, the fruit is like nothing I ever tasted before. I only grow them as I can’t buy such high quality fruit. Your statements are quite ridiculous, sorry I feel you are dead wrong on about everything you say. When you attack the person with the message and not the message itself it shows your arguments has no merit. Kevin’s trees were damaged he was kicked and was down, and what did you do? You kicked him again.
I would take your own advice. Did you not here us? We took your advice, we tried organic, and it didn’t work, so we went with another approach and it works amazingly well. It’s working for me, it’s working for all of us. I disagree on how dangerous the chemicals are. What we are allowed to use as home owners is really lame stuff compared to commercial products… Yet they do work somewhat. Being organic or not has nothing to do with how dangerous they are. Many very bad ones have been organic. I like the man made ones as the are designed to become inert. Often it’s the organics that linger in the environment forever. Such as copper. Which is an essential metal humans must have or die, but it is a very dangerous metal in the environment. We are all well aware to use with caution. Why most of us only use once a year, and it is an organic!
I stay as organic as possible, except when it is unwise to do so. I use a minimum of sprays, as we all do. I feel it has ZERO effect on the environment. Well it could be good for it, that is always possible. Keeping pathogens low is always a good thing.
I feel it’s very dangerous to say organics are safe, they are not and can be, will be misused if not made aware of the dangers of organic pesticides.
I roundup around my trees in my orchard and I have zero tree damage. I mix it with ammonium sulfate for a good adherence to the weeds and within 10 days stuff around 2 feet of my tree in a circle is brown/yellow wilted.
I spray when my trees are awake but I have no green leaves low so maybe thats why I’ve never had a problem. I have serious deer numbers around where I am so I’m not having any branches begin below 5-6 feet.
I would examine each individual product for its merits and dangers, regardless of whether it’s synthetic or natural. Neem oil is as natural as they come, but it does a nasty number on beneficial soil microbes. Natural can be good, but not always. Let’s not fall prey to the “naturalistic fallacy”.
Edit: and this is coming from someone who usually hates using any product.
I agree, but my response is that this isn’t a forum about agricultural ideologies. All ideologies are welcome here, just please don’t come to pontificate, or condemn those with different views in how to grow fruit. We are a community of people trying to help each other succeed, not to achieve conversions to our own views on the evil or lack of evil of any particular method.
Thanks Drew. While I’ve now opted out of discussing growing philosophies on this thread, I appreciate the comment. I’ve followed your growing techniques and varieties of many of your desert fruit. I’ve no doubt they are super delicious. I can tell you made careful chioces of some of the most flavorful stone fruit to grow. Kudos
Joe, because I am a newbie here and not a Big Farma, I pretty much cringe and say nothing, fearing hostility, condesention, and bannishment. The bravest I did was the other day writing “Yikes roundup!” or something to that effect. Nobody seemed to notice.
There is a “type” of farmer who generously uses weed and moss killer herbicides, pesticides, fungicides, and GMOs then sells to the unsuspecting locals as “healthy and farm fresh.” None of my in poverty neighbors can afford organics only foods daily, and we want HUD to stop spraying our lawns so wedo not have it in the produce we grow near it.
When I discussed here and with local Shorty’s nursery how to avoid peach leaf curl and 1st was told of a chemical then copper, and even that temporarily I read can harm some animals, I decided never to own a peach tree and paid for a trouble-free persimmon instead.
This forum is full of knowledge, experience, and not drama. I love that! But I never want a scion or to buy produce from any here due to the poisons.
I actually agree (and disagree) with some things Joe has talked about, such as:
Trying to grow fruits (or vegetables) that aren’t really native to your environment, and using noxious chemicals to get them to work out seems counterintuitive. I mean, one reason, if not the biggest reason, folks grow their own stuff is because it’s good for their health, so spraying them with these chemicals seems contradictory.
But, saying that, some fruits that have been established for years have been impacted by the introduction of non-native pests like SWD, OFM, Japanese beetles, etc so some kind of control is necessary.
I agree in the sense that a lot of produce one finds in the store is not very good. Yes, you can find good produce sometimes, but some of the apples, tomatoes, peaches, cucumbers are just blech. All the more reason to grow your own.
Totally agree. Here, grow some corn, soybeans, alfalfa, cotton, sorghum, etc that is immune to gyphosate. WTF? So, in other words, grow these crops that would ordinarily get fried by Roundup, which is used to kill weeds. Nevermind that weeds are increasingly becoming resistant to the chemical, and that will eventually need to be controlled by some other noxious chemical, like say, 2-4D.
But, before I am flogged for my opinions, I do strongly disagree with other things Joe has mentioned:
That seems overly condemning, it seems to me there is a lot of interest on here in non-traditional, low or no spray fruit, like paw-paws, jujubes, persimmons, various berries, tart cherry bushes and so on. Just perusing through the many threads on here would contradict that assertion.
This seemed like it was directed at Olpea specifically, which seems harsh and unwarranted. Have you actually tried any of the fruit that he has grown? From what I’ve read from his many posts and reviews of the varieties he grows, he tries to grow the best tasting, most productive and disease resistant peaches possible. It’s taken him many years, but through trial and error, he’s producing some very good fruit.
I find this amusing. Raising lifestock has way more impact on the environment that growing fruit. Regardless of how their raised, cows produce lots of methane, what do fruit trees produce, I don’t know, oxygen?
Temperate zone fruits like pome fruit, stone fruit, just about all types of berries, nuts, vine fruits would contradict that assertion as well. I can’t grow in-ground citrus here, and you can’t grow blueberries or raspberries where you’re at. So what?
I admire you wanting to grow native non-spray plants where you’re at, but your attitude and pontification is a big turn-off to those who might be interested in what you might want to be trying to convey.
This is what I’m responding to. I’ve been involved in local farm hubub the past 5-10 years here in Rural Michigan. I can say all the farmers I talk to 100% agree with that above statement. Organic is by standards hogwash, they use about as many chemicals as non Organics do, but as long as they go by the letter of the FDA law they can be ‘certified organic’.
Wow, I read through this thread a little more after it seems some replies I read seemed were awkward.
@joehewitt I get where your coming from, a kid I graduated highschool from worked at ecolab then actually developed cancer from the Monsanto driven products. I am fully aware of the gravity of the situation with spraying.
My trees are young, 6 of my trees when I was first planting my orchard were killed by a farmer from over spray of roundup.
I do some bug spraying because rose bugs are bad here and my trees are still young yet and I’m trying to get them big quicker so they can stand to the environment pressure and I can ease up on the care with sprays.
I think the venomous angle you took as though most people are grocery market thumpers looking to buy a tasteless red delicious off the shelf was a bit far fetched for the people that are around here.
All new comers have things to learn and the old dogs still learn new tricks around here I have no doubt.
A step back and fresh eyes sometimes are much wiser than diving in on a topic with blind passion with ll regard for the bystanders.
Oh, I agree there’s ways to raise cattle that aren’t overly destructive to the land.
But you can’t stop a cow from burping and letting SBD’s fly, and that’s the big issue. Maybe the methane can be reduced through diets, but cows still gonna be cows…
I don’t think this is really true. When I buy fruit grown in my region when it’s in season there is essentially no difference in taste between “conventionally” grown fruit and “organic” fruit. It’s not really reasonable to think that they are going to be able to ship stone fruit from California to my front door in Virginia when it’s fully ripe. To be exact, it’s not a question of “farming” practices but a question of logistics. This is why the fruit and tomatoes I grown in my backyard will always beat the stuff in the store - it travels maybe 200 feet to get to my kitchen.
If you want to eat fruit and vegetables out of season then you’re going to have to compromise on quality.
Do you use a cell phone? I refuse to carry mine, giant cancer machines, especially brain cancer. I find it ironic that people will avoid very low risk things due to myths and folk lore, yet the dangerous stuff they carry with them at all times.