New guy hello from NE Indiana + questions

[Indy-figgy]

Good afternoon!
I recently joined this forum because my biggest passion is growing fruit (well…trying to grow fruit). My name is Jimmy and I live in NE Indiana and I started growing fruit trees about 5 years ago. I started by planting a sour cherry tree I got from traverse city, Mi. I love fruit and the cherry tree was a nod to my childhood cherry tree I had at my house we had growing up. I had a couple lemon trees I was toying with in my small grow room with my houseplants. I pretty much killed them with love (overwatering) eventually and was set back to “I can’t grow fruit”……then I got more involved with gardening and what do you know, along came more in ground fruit trees. That was almost 6 years ago, and now I have many more fruit trees. I have the following 3 sour cherry, 4 plums, 19 apple trees, 2 nectarines, 7 peach trees, 2 pear trees, 3 blueberry bushes, 2 paw paws, hardy kiwi, service berry bush, 2 gooseberry, white/red/black currants, 20 black/red/gold raspberries, red and black goji berry, 60 fig trees in pots, honey berries, josta berries, elderberry, Nanking cherry, eastern stone cherry, and che trees……I may have missed one or two lol…a lot of these have been just planted this year and quite a few are still in pots. Ya, my obsession quickly turned to madness. Well I do have some questions if anyone could answer for me:

1. Can I still plant smaller plants and have them survive? I still have honey berries, currants, and a couple other small rooted plants. They are pretty small, like 6” or less. Most are actively growing now but our winters get cold here.

2. How would I go about summer pruning my peach, apple, plum, and cherry trees? I have done some research on the matter but the info is clouded. Some say no, others say yes. If so what conditions do I look out for? Rain and timing of course are key factors.

3. Should I prune out some of the unwanted branches from my barefoot fruit trees I planted this spring? I want to start training them but I don’t want to take away growth that will help the trees store energy to survive the winter. They are all pretty much growing good.

4. What all around fungicide/insecticide do you guys use? Maybe a fungicide and an insecticide separate as well? I use sulfur and pyrethrum, copper fungicide, and fruit tree guard. I have also used Spinosad, but I seem to get behind the ball. I have also used surround this year and it is pretty unsightly, but it does work until the growth outgrows the sprayed leaves. I could do a lot better with spraying in the beginning of the season, but it’s usually wet and cold, which is a perfect time to spray.

I am open to any info, previous posts, experience, or websites that will help answer some of my questions.

[dannytoro1]

Greetings and welcome aboard.

[KS_razerback]

Welcome!
What I would do personally for each of your questions (someone else could have a better method for you, but probably no-one does things the exact same):

1. I would plant them where you want it at and mulch heavily around them in a 2’-3’ circle without burying your plant under it and put two stakes with it between it, so you don’t lose track of it. I wouldn’t be worried about currants or honeyberries getting killed by the cold, especially when you still have a couple months to lignify before you get any freeze.
2. With summer pruning I just pull water sprouts off that are in the wrong spots and pinch off the ends of shoots that I want growing less. And I just make sure it isn’t supposed to rain in the next couple days.
3. I usually butcher off a good portion of bare root tree’s branches when I’m putting them in. I’m not adverse either if the tree is growing well to chop off a branch that I really don’t like. Also I sometimes ring a 1/16"-1/8" of bark and cambian on the base of the branch I don’t like, so the tree reduces the energy put into that branch and prune it off later in the winter.
4. I don’t spray any on my fruit trees, partly because I have no problem eating around bug holes and with disease I can choose resistant varieties and not have everything destroyed (though I can see myself eventually want to be spraying).
   If you are bothered more than me by those problems I’d ask someone else what to do.

[Paddy]

I’ll combine questions 2 and 3. Stone fruit trees need pruning. Some say prune when your tools are sharp.

For me it’s all about pruning to your desired shape, for me open vase no taller than 8 ft. The shape of the tree starts when you buy a tree. I prefer a small tree with 3-4 baby scaffolds 14 to 18 inches off the ground. I cut the center out at planting.

All future pruning is keeping the shape. In the first few years I use wire and stakes to bend the scaffolds down. Any branch going straight up is removed, otherwise it will shoot for the sky.

I’ll be done picking peaches here in a week and will hack off a lot of vertical growth. I plan to shorten some of the long scaffolds. My 8 ft tall trees are now 20+ feet wide!

[Indy-figgy]

What about growth on newly planted peach trees that is too vigorous? Should I prune out some extra branches I don’t want and head back a couple of vigorous branches I am keeping? Or should I keep all the growth so the new trees can gather as much resources to survive winter? These trees were planted barefoot this spring and are doing pretty well besides a bit of disease here and there. Can I also head back some laterals on my apple trees at this time as well and remove top growth to keep them at a certain height? I’m trying to maintain a few trees at this time because my shape is good and when I winter prune they end up going crazy. I’m trying to limit that, but I would rather limit disease. That is what is really keeping me from summer pruning as I hear you can get diseases easier. Also how in the world do I prune my cherry trees? I had to do some corrective pruning to create an open center and BOOM! They exploded with vigorous growth that doesn’t seem to produce fruit buds that well. I guess we will see.

Thank you all for the replies!!!

[Eme]

Ann Ralph’s book has a good explanation of how pruning close to summer solstice slows growth, but once you get further from it and even to August, the pruning will act more like winter and be invigorating. I’m brand new at this, and I found it really easy to read and valuable.

[Paddy]

Indy-figgy,

Don’t prune peaches in the winter.
tree bought this spring

center cut out completely

7 year old peach

Any vertical rapid growing branch needs to go ASAP, except winter. The tree is trying to make a new top. You don’t want a new top. You want a completely open center. I can walk “through” my trees, I step over the low crotch.

Here is a tree planted 2 years ago. It’s a snip in the background of the 7 year old peach

[Paddy]

The small trees above are tart cherries, also open center. Sweat cherries…I removed ours. Too vigorous and bug magnets.

I picked these yesterday from the 3 Red Havens, maybe 25% done and a lot more to come. We are in Bloomington IN.

[benthegirl]

Welcome! I’ll encourage you to go read old posts by searching some of your questions. I have learned piles and piles from the many answers people have written for the forum- it is definitely worth it to read through old posts for the voluminous expertise in them.

I’m pretty new to this as well, so take what I say with a grain of salt but here’s my thoughts on some of this:

@Paddy

Any vertical rapid growing branch needs to go ASAP, except winter.

I would agree to this with a caveat - In my fav peach pruning videos: Mike Parker - NC State Pruning Young Peach Tree. He suggests letting some vertical upgrights grow in the center for the first 2 years, above your scaffolds, then taking them out.

It has made sense for me to do that because otherwise I would spend all my time trying to cut off vertical growth and tying down branches to get them to spread.

@Indy-figgy

keeping me from summer pruning

I have pruned whenever I have time. Rain, shine, hot, cold, … However, because of a recommendation from @Olpea I have stuck to pruning peaches/nectarines in summer.

Also, I have issues with fireblight on pears and so those I am cautious about. They are a bit of a no-win situation. You don’t want to encourage vigorous growth, you want to cut out cankers, you don’t want the tree to not grow…

A bit more on pruning:

This discussion and the video were really helpful for me to learn how to care for my peach trees - Mature peach tree pruning it has lots more advice than just how to prune a mature peach tree.

@Indy-figgy

1. Can I still plant smaller plants and have them survive?

Yes. It probably would have been better to plant them in spring but planting now will give them enough time before winter. The biggest problem with planting now is keeping them from drying out in the summer heat before they can establish roots. Also, make sure to protect them from deer and racoons - when I’ve planted little plants, I’ve had curious racoons dig them up and deer munch them in a single bite.

@Indy-figgy

4. What all around fungicide/insecticide do you guys use?

You should use this time to really monitor and figure out what sorts of pests and problems you might have in your area. Then you can tailor any all-around or pre-set program to fit your needs.

I found spraying the most overwhelming part of this whole thing but the stuff that helped the most was:

1. The spray guides in the guides section. Lots of good stuff there.
2. Paying attention to problems with my plants and other people’s in my area
3. Reading the local ag guides and websites

I don’t spray non-producing trees very much. I also spray different things for different issues.

Pretty much everything gets dormant oil spray and copper or sulfur or both (not together). I’ve never actually found lime-sulfur, so I’ve just used sulfur powder, which has been effective.

For peaches that aren’t producing: in dormant times they get copper for leaf curl. They also get dormant oil because some got some weird mite like things.

Some of my pears had bad pear leaf blister mite so all pears get oil+sulfur at bud swell. All the apples and pears also get fireblight sprays (dormant copper, then streptomycin) because that’s an issue in my area. For fireblight and for cedar apple rust (CAR), the local ag school puts out spray notifications which I follow as best I can - sometimes I can’t spray because of my real job.

Producing pears get one fungicide spray (the apples get more) because of scab but it’s not a huge problem for me.

For peaches/cherries/apples that are producing: I use a modified version of @alan’s spray guide: Spray Schedule- Synthetic Materials. I have to spray peaches and apples a bit more than he does. I also use slightly different sprays based on what is less expensive and available to me.

I haven’t sprayed raspberries in the past, but I’m going to have to start based on this year - or maybe this year was strange since we’ve had endless rain and humidity.

I don’t have plums (I should get a plum tree!) but if I did have one, I’d probably follow the same schedule as above.

For pawpaw and hardy kiwi I don’t spray at all.

Serviceberry is awful in my area. They get CAR and they aren’t worth it. If I kept them I’d spray so they weren’t hosting CAR but I don’t like them enough so I removed the trees.

Things I don’t have and don’t know what to spray for them: blueberry, gooseberry, currant, goji berry, josta berry, elderberry, and che.

This year, spotted lanternfly has also moved to my area - my understanding is spraying them is ineffective and I’ve seen some ideas for traps which I may try next year. I believe for some other pests, traps and mating interruption are the preferred methods but I haven’t had to deal with them yet (knock on wood).

Hope some of this helps!

[Olpea]

+1 For Mike Parker’s pruning vids.

We just got a huge wind and rain storm.

We are behind on pruning and just had at least one tree collapse as a result.

These trees got pruned in time, but honestly my help pruned them a little low.

[benthegirl]

Sorry to hear about the tree - apparently, your year is like mine here - huge amount of good growing conditions. It’s been hard to keep up with the weeds and the mowing and the pruning.

I’ve had several trees put on so much growth, even without fruit, that branches snapped.

[Olpea]

I’ve been incredibly busy. About 80 hrs a week for 3 months.

Weed control is terrible right now.

Lots and lots of rain. About 12" in July so far, and it’s raining now.

I’m trying to keep the Upick stuff mowed, but the orchard looks shaggy.

It doesn’t all look super bad, but it takes 2 full days to mow everything and 2 full days to lay herbicide down (almost a week of full time weed control).

That’s not counting spraying everything for insect pests and fungus, which takes a long day.

By the time I sell fruit all day, it doesn’t leave much time for weed control, which is the lowest priority.

Here’s some weeds dying in some peach rows from some spraying a week ago

[Indy-figgy]

Do some of you guys put herbicide around your drip line of your trees? I have been thinking about this (keeping it well away from the tree) but being selective in what I use. Some herbicides go into the root system and some do not. Any thoughts on this without hurting my trees?

[JAF]

I’ve used herbicide for over 40 years to control the weeds under nursery trees. We would use a banding nozzle and spray a band about 2’ wide down each side of the trees. We would clean cultivate the rows back in the day, but use grass in the aisle rows. Basically we would used glyphosate and a pre emergent at the same time. We would not use Roundup Pro due to the surfactant they used in fear of trunk penetration. We would just use a non ionic surfactant. Its more forgiving than most people think on woody/bark. You’re going to get some on the trunks if you are spraying 600 acres. You should always be cautious of green soft tissue. Including green thin skined trunks.

You really need to research labels as far as fruit trees go, since you will be eating the fruit. The ones I found to use on bearing apples and peaches has been Pedulum Aqua cap and Alion. They are both low water soluble herbicides, so they dont move much through the soil and not freely into the root zone. Alion is very expensive, but very good and you only use 6-8 fl oz per acre. So it goes a long way and last a long while. Same active ingredient as Marengo but labeled for bearing fruit. Its around $479 a quart. But I only 2.5 oz in my 25 gallon tank. Basically 16 applications for me. It will last me 2-3 years. I’ll see how it works for me this year.

Pedulum Aqua cap is cheaper but you use more and it stains a little. It one of the many Pedemethalin herbicides used for residential crabgrass control. Its labeled for bearing fruit trees, while others arent. I follow label protocol.

Low souluble herbicides don’t move off site as much either. Run off or get into the water table.

Cut all the suckers off a few days before and control your drift. I hand spray my rows with about 3’ bands on each side of the row using a flat fan nozzle on my wand, so 6’ wide and trees are space 15’ to 18’ between rows. I have about a half acre of trees (100 trees older trees) and I can spray them in a couple hours. I go back and get any problems weeds later by hand or more glyphosate. Its pretty clean for 6-9 months.

I’m extra careful on the young trees, in fact this year I used only my hoe until I get them mulched which I’m doing right now. I’m trying to cut down on spraying in general.

Be careful of using products from box stores as they are often not for use directly under trees and have additional chemicals in them for turf or non growing sites.

[benthegirl]

I am small time but would use herbicide to keep weeds down (probably a pre-emergent) if I was able to find the time.

[KS_razerback]

How good would clethodim and avalanche work as a cheaper option to control weeds around fruit trees? Neither should be harmful to the tree even if gotten on the leaves.

[JAF]

I never heard of Avalanche before so I looked it up. Its a post emergent contact herbicide which says not to spray over the top. Its used as a burndown with glyphosate resistant weeds in field crops, prior to planting. So it will burn your foilage. No sure if it move into the plant.

Weeds according to the label needs to be small, 2-4" I usually can’t get to spraying until weeds are larger. Sometimes 2 feet.

It has a Danger Caution word, mainly due to fact, its a corrosive and can cause permanent eye damage. I don’t use DANGER caution word chemicals. Thats just me.

It also has a PHI on strawberry fields of 50 days and that spraying it as burn down and not on the fruit itself. Its not labeled for use on fruits and trees.

You have to tank mix the two chemicals.

There is nothing in the two as preemergent so weeds will be right back.

I wouldn’t recommend Avanche at all in fruits or gardens. No advantages of it over Glyphosate in my opinion and it kills the grasses too.

Glyphosate cost me around 30 cents a fluid ounce. So my 25 gallon tank cost me about $7.50 to $12 in glyphosate plus some AMS and surfactant. Pretty cheap and safer for me and IMO safer for the plants if used properly.

With pre emergent I’m spraying once maybe twice a year. For about 2 hours a spray. Thats applying it in bands for the pre emergent herbicide.

My garden is organic by choice, I’ve spent 3 hours hoeing this week in it.

I’m mulching this year to try to eliminate the spraying even more. Hopefully I can just do spot sprays in the future which would take about 30 minutes.

[KS_razerback]

For some reason I was thinking Avalanche was a pre-emergent. I am going to ask my brother again what it is that we have used.