New here! Advice on fruit spray please

General Fruit Growing
#21

What you have to consider with any cancer causing agent - which is just about everything that is not inert - is the mode of action by which it can cause cancer. Some substances are carcinogenic through their mutagenic properties (i.e., they cause actually damage to your DNA). You really want to limit your exposure to any mutagen to zero if possible. Many substances are carcinogenic through their effect or stress on the various systems in the human body. With these substances you don’t want to expose yourself to the point of actually causing the stress in your body - the point here being that low levels that do not cause stress are fine.

A quick googling indicates that Captan is the latter and not the former. It seems that you would need repeated doses strong enough to cause intestinal irritation to do any real damage

#22

Susu, welcome aboard. I live in the philly western suburb, zone 6, so we are in the same general area. Many experts here have given you a lot of valuable advices already, I am just going to describe here what I do for my fruit trees, and whatever I do, I learned from the experts here.

I have grape, peach, plum and pear. Plum and pear are not really bearing, so I only need to deal with grape and peach.

Grape: black rot. I spray immunox multipurpose fungicide (1.5% myclobutanil) twice a season, once in the spring when green shoot is about an inch long(I read it somewhere), and when grape bunch show sign of black rot again, I spray one more time. That’s enough to take care the problem. This year, I will try what Allen said above, spray second time after grape looses its petal and see if it will work.

Peach:
peach borer: when I first discovered borer at bottom of tree trunk, I tried for a year to treated it by using latex paint and mothball, It didn’t work😡 So I sprayed with sprays with bifenthrin as active ingredient. It worked. Nowadays, every few years I will discover borer again, I will just use sharp object impale the larvae and spray.

Leaf curl: I spray copper once a year at early spring when tree are still dormant .
Brown rot and bugs: I am constantly battling these two. I spray captan (fungicide) and Triazacide(pesticide) at bud break, petal fall, shuck split and one more time two weeks after that(sometimes, I skip the last one). That usually have brown rot and bugs under control. I still got some brown rot, some bug damages, but it’s at a acceptable level to me.

I don’t spray anything in full bloom because of bees. I know people say fungicide won’t hurt bees, but I am worried bees may still be impacted by it.

I find that timing of spray is very important To control bugs. My peach trees don’t flower at the same time. This spring, when i did Petal fall spray, one tree was closer to shuck split than to petal fall, the fruits from this tree end up to be very wormmy while peaches from other trees only have superficial bug damage.

These are just my personal experience. I would love to grow them organically, but I am kind of lazy😔

#23

I haven’t looked at toxicity in awhile but my memory is the more modern fungicides such as Immunox and MFF are a bit less toxic than Captan, and all the disease fighters are a lot less toxic than the bug killers. For me I avoid the bug killers with one exception being the viruses, spinosad and codling moth granulosis, which are bug and not mammal viruses.

#24

Susu, I have in my files an epidemiological study done by the Dept of Health and peer reviewed in a highly respected scientific journal that has followed the health histories of about 70,000 certified sprayer- farmers and their spouses for over 2 decades, that shows they are much healthier, live longer and have less cancer than the average citizen in their states- not a minor difference, but a major one. These are people that tend to have extremely high rates of exposure to pesticides, especially the older farmers in the group, most of whom pulled mist blowers in open tractors for decades, literally living in a fog of pesticides like DDT for much of the growing season.

Our primary exposure to synthetic carcinogens is not through agricultural sources but from the likes of plastic food and drink containers, foam cushioning in furniture and volatile wood preservatives and other chemicals that we are exposed to in the trapped air of our homes and automobiles.

If you would like to see the study send me a private message and I will send it to you.

#25

Alan, backyard growers are not only spraying themselves, the spray is drifting on neighboring yards where children may be playing. Children are much more susceptible to neurological damage from pesticides since their brains are still developing. So, I don’t think those studies directly apply to many of our backyard orchard situations. Here is a position paper for example of the problem of pesticide exposure on children: https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/130/6/e1757

#26

That is not a research paper, but I’m not suggesting that care shouldn’t be taken to avoid drift. However, maybe they ought to study the relative health of farm children if they want to seriously assess the potential risk of pesticide exposure instead of making scary, spottily based speculations. An epidemiological study of children who eat only organic compared to children that eat conventional would not be terribly expensive either.

Meanwhile the study I mention is about farmers who probably mostly were raised by farmers and experienced from childhood very high rates of exposure compared to what could be acquired from residue on food.

This paper just isn’t science, IMO, Scot- at least you need to mention the specific pesticides that research suggests may be problematic which mostly are products not readily available to the home grower- such as organophosphates.

I think it is wrong to make growers feel guilty or afraid to use products such as myclobuanil or certain pyrethroids that can make the difference between success and failure and have not been shown to be harmful to children or anyone else when used properly.

#27

Alan, the AAP is the leading society for Pediatricians in the US. So yes its science. Its their summary recommendations not a detailed paper. I’m not trying to make anyone feel guilty, people should be able to make their own decisions. I am just pointing out that children need special consideration when it comes to pesticide exposure and the article you mentioned did not consider children so it is not the whole answer. I am in a suburb with kids playing a few feet from my trees so its a big deal for me.

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#28 
              These are just my personal experience. I would love to grow them organically, but I am kind of lazy​:pensive:

Good enough reason for me :slight_smile:

By the way, I’m in Blue Bell area.

#29

OK… so I read through the Low Impact Spray Schedule, took all your advice, also read through the Penn State Extension write up on fruit growing and put together below spray chart for myself. I have a feeling this little spray won’t get me nice looking fruits. But do take a look and let me know what you think. As you can tell, i’m trying to stick to the organic path.
Open to suggestions, changes, ideas.

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#30

Can’t believe this pasted just like in excel. Love it!

#31

Also pls take a look at page 83 on below pdf. The chart shows that surround isn’t all that effective on many bugs. Thoughts?

http://extension.psu.edu/plants/gardening/fphg/extension_publication_file

#32

It may also be helpful to identify the kinds of pests and diseases that are hurting your plants,before throwing things at them.
Besides Peach Leaf Curl affecting my Nectarine,earwigs,stinkbugs and ants were going after the fruit and making a mess of them.What changed things there,was covering each fruit with those nylon footies,used in shoe stores,when they were about half size.Even a piece of fruit that fell to the ground,for an unknown amount of time was pristine.Those may not work for everybody,but they sure helped me.Brady

#33

Surround does a good job on curculio and also for stinkbugs and Japanese beetles, but its not a good moth protectant. Thats why I use the CM granulosis and spinosad, and you can see those two things are rated better in their table. Those are the most important bugs, the other ones are less common. For your table above you will either need to add viruses or plan on bagging fruit.

I would not paint the neem on the apple, someone tried it and the sun baked it and killed the bark and the tree. Only stone fruits.

I don’t use neem as a spray in the growing season but its probably as good as any other oil. The PSU table also confirms how neem has little bug killing action, its azadirachtin on the top line. Neem is similar to any other oil, it kills mites and aphids and thats about it. Raw neem may be better but I tried it and did not notice a lot of difference myself. Its also a real mess to deal with.

In your schedule you have no control for black rot on grapes. You will need to be doing copper in place of all those neem/Serenade sprays; dormant copper sets back rot but it will still come in the summer eventually. At some point I gave up on all the copper and switched to myclobutanil (Immunox). Surround on grapes is only needed for Japanese beetles on grapes, so only start it when they show up.

On the peaches if you are getting a lot of spot add a fall copper spray. You currently have no real control for OFM as Surround does not do well. Pruning flagging tip shoots will reduce the numbers a bit but without spinosad or bagging it could be a struggle.

On the apples you may have CAR problems, none of the sprays you have protect against that. I use Immunox every few years to beat that back. Its mainly cosmetic if it doesn’t get out of hand though, and if there are no cedars nearby you may avoid it completely. Quince rust is far worse than CAR, it wrecks the fruits. But its less common than CAR. As with the peaches you have no strong moth control on the apples so either bagging or a virus are needed.

On all of your fruits I would consider using sulphur as well, in my experience it is more powerful than Serenade or oil. I am often adding Sulphur to my tank when I spray Surround. Some grapes don’t like sulphur supposedly (I never noticed it myself).

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#34

By saying it’s not science, I mean that it is not a research paper and is essentially an editorial by a group not directly involved in research. That’s fine, but the paper makes a sweeping indictment of pesticides in general when research papers cited are talking about materials most of us are not using and aren’t being recommended here. The studies I looked up from the paper were only evaluating exposure and not consequences of exposure, anyway.

I strongly feel that this forum should stick to more specific information instead of instilling fear of the legal use of materials not known to be harmful, when applied according to label instructions.

That said, I completely agree that children are most vulnerable to the dangers of pesticide exposure and we should all be mindful of drift when spraying any poisons- organic or synthetic.

#35

A rigid spray schedule may create comfort but you also need to observe and respond- some of the sprays you mention may not be necessary. Up here in S. NY I only need copper for certain peach varieties at only 2 of over 100 sites I manage, and peaches are all that require it.

If you are willing to use Myclobutinal it will make some things much easier to produce, especially grapes, but it is magic against certain apple diseases as well. As far as coddling moth pressure and OFM, up here that is also very site specific as far as pressure- you simply can’t base your schedule on even nearby orchards- you will need to study your own little ecosystem. It is going to be an evolving and changing environment which requires careful observation and adaptation which is all part of the fun.

Your worst pest may be squirrels and even coons, incidentally. You might want to take that into consideration from the very beginning so you can train trees to allow the installation of baffles.

#36

I use it on cherry trees too, although how helpful it is to prevent canker is certainly debatable. Susu mentions the Bonide product, which I like to use on tomatoes to stop blight and septoria spot, which seems to kill most of my tomato plants every year…It worked as well as anything, slowing it down to a crawl, long enough to finish the season out at least.

#37

I use copper on my tomatoes also, but stop spraying once tomatoes start to ripen and then jut let early blight take its course. I’m still eating my Country Taste tomatoes which I picked green a month ago- still better than store bought. This variety really is amazing for productivity and good but not great flavor. Tastes great now!

#38

I do the same thing as years where I continued spraying made no difference.[quote=“alan, post:37, topic:7863”]
I’m still eating my Country Taste tomatoes
[/quote]
Cool, yeah I had my last maybe 2 weeks ago. I had some more, but I was not home to harvest and the freezes have taken them. Today since my wife is working, I’m going to make some tomato sauce with what I have left frozen. I freeze any fresh tomatoes we cannot use in time before spoilage. Some years I grow pastes just for sauce. Not the case this year. Sucks no turkey today, oh well, living and working in the medical field, one has to accept that people get sick everyday. No complaints about the holiday pay! Maybe she will make enough to pay for all the money she will spend on Black Friday! I could use a new dishwasher! Mine has been down for months now!

#39

Ok I’m back! Hope everybody had a nice Thanksgiving.
Thank you all for the feedback. As many of you said I will wait for the bugs to attack me before I decide on a product and spray. Hopefully it won’t be too late.
I do want to take action against diseases though. I have one cedar tree about 40 ft away from the Apple tree. So I do want to spray something for CAR. Below link is for a product that contains 4% sulphur, it’s mainly for tropical fruits but is this something i could use on apples? The price is very appealing but I don’t want to get the wrong product just because it’s cheap.
Also, Scott : it’s great news that you only need to use immunox once every few years to set back some of the diseases. I don’t mind using it if I only have to do it once every few years.

http://m.homedepot.com/p/Southern-Ag-1-pt-Citrus-Nutritional-Spray-100048939/100599817?cm_mmc=SEM|THD|google|&mid=s08nnqGdR|dm_mtid_8903jx325196_pcrid_107016479248_pkw__pmt__product_100599817_slid_&gclid=CJLWjIemx9ACFUVXDQodSMUNpA

#40

I would spray cedar wood chips out of the chainsaw if that’s an option. CAR can be a hassle.