This is my first post. I found this site by trying to find Alan Haigh from old Houzz posts.
I just bought a 6acre historic property in NH which was formerly an apple orchard. It is now re-forested with mature hardwood trees (mostly) throughout. I want to start a fruit and nut permaculture orchard by clearing some of the land, but as minimally as required. There should be a huge diversity of fruits and nuts when established. I am torn with clearing trees under the current environmental state of things. Do I need to remove all stumps or can they be left to disturb the soils as little as possible? The property has a 5-15% pitch throughout, so I’m concerned about erosion after removing the stumps. I suppose I could leave the extensive leaf litter until I am ready to plant cover crops in the spring, to help control erosion. Thoughts on how best to approach this? Thanks, and very thankful to have found this site.
I’d probably grind them, but you can leave them in a Permaculture system.
We shredded what was small, ground the stumps and had the large logs hauled off. Nothing left but yards of mulch in a pile. No as cheap as a bulldozer but minimal soil disruption
Have you thought about leaving the stumps and inoculating them with mushrooms?
Thats a great option, whether we approach it that way or simply cut wood and make mushroom log stacks. Thanks.
You’ll need shade for logs, stumps are different because they are 90% underground.
If stumps are still in the ground, especially in a old apple orchard, you do not want to convert to a new one. Old apple orchard contains cyanide in the ground. New young trees do not do well there.
Grow a cover crop first, like green manure and till it under.
We have requested our Agro extension visit for soil testing next month. We’ve had no orchard for over 100 years I believe and no visible signs of stumps. Its overgrown with hardwood trees now. Would cyanide persist this long? Thanks.
I doubt it, if you do built an orchard your best bet to start in the fall, but still do the green manuring now, while you still be able to do.you are good to go, it’s a big benefit.Take a look at old astablish orchards, they always have a open field that was used with a variety that didn’t sell well. Farmers benefit for tax exempt to leave 25% of the orchard clean. With them you could regraft with a different variety or leave it clean for a while.
When you ready to plant, make sure you take in consideration orientation of your rows towards the prevailing winds in the summer for good air drainage.
thanks, much appreciated
[quote=“aap, post:7, topic:22884”]
Old apple orchard contains cyanide in the ground.
[/quote]Cyanide ion hydrolizes quickly in the environment, therefore no.
[quote=“aap, post:7, topic:22884”]
New young trees do not do well there.
Grow a cover crop first, like green manure and till it under.
[/quote]You have to have a good reason for fruit trees not to grow on the land with forest leftovers. The reason could be one the the following:
- Either the forest woody species used to produce compounds that suppress other plants, however the forest woody plants are terminated and what’s remains of them will be utilized/processed by microorganisms and decomposed. The process could be effectively facilitated by nitrogen fertilize. Most forest woody species don’t produce compounds inducing significant allelopathy effect suppressing the growth of other species.
- Wood and tree parts have high C/N, carbon to nitrogen, ratio well above 30 (the number can very, 80 to 200-400) making negative nitrogen balance during organic matter decomposition to humic soil particles (phase) in the soil during woody mater decomposition.
Planted new trees will either have nitrogen deficiency as a result (unless they are known to participate in nitrogen fixation) or will require extra nitrogen soil fertilization to mitigate tree competition with microorganisms for nitrogen.
Addition of nitrogen fertilizer will significantly accelerate wood and other lignified plant tissue decomposition by fungi and other microorganisms.
(Straw decomposition requires about 10 kg of nitrogen per ton of straw; extrapolated rate for wood/saw dust should not be higher then 20.)
Mowing could be a better alternative to tillage regardless of the grass cover chosen for the orchard floor.
I am with hoosier. you will probably get too much wood. you can use some of the logs half buried across the slope, they make passable swales depending on the length of the log and that will reduce your watering needs. hey would fertilize, as would the stumps, inject with fungi by you or by nature. I am partial to injecting smaller logs with shiitake because with those you can force fruit them anytime you want (given a week notice), during the warm season.
disagree. large blocks of wood, such as stumps, do not really rob nitrogen, and over the long term they add nitrogen. their surface is not big enough. that is why hugelkultur works. leaving stumps is hugelkultur for lazy people…
[quote=“glib, post:14, topic:22884”]
leaving stumps is hugelkultur for lazy people…
[/quote]Did you her me saying stump removal is needed prior to fruit tree planting?
[quote=“glib, post:14, topic:22884”]
large blocks of wood, such as stumps, do not really rob nitrogen, and over the long term they add nitrogen. their surface is not big enough
[/quote]Wood to humus conversion requires extra added nitrogen regardless the nitrogen source. The source of nitrogen can either be atmosphere, soil solution or an added nitrogen fertilizer. One relying on an atmospheric source of nitrogen should keep in mind that the process could only effectively compete with nitrogen fertilization
if nitrogen fixating microorganisms are in symbiosis with living plants. Woody/lignified organic matter decomposes slowly because nitrogen fixation during that process is slow and the lack of nitrogen is naturally limiting the process should no extra nitrogen fertilizer be added.
One should avoid depleted nitrogen concentration below optimal in the soil solution in a developing or a fruiting orchard or mineral nutrition deficit will limit bioproductivity of the fruit trees utilized for vegetative and generative fruit tree development.
Do you have any pictures? Where I live, if I leave stumps on a hillside they end up overgrown with 20ft tall blackberry brambles and various brush. It’s very difficult to mow or get a tractor safely through because the hazards are hidden.
How do you handle Himalayan blackberries on sloped land maintained as permaculture?
Igor you must be a scientist, you can say whatever you want, I am talking about small trees.everybody knows that stumps will turn into useful stuff, but not right away.[quote=“Igor850, post:15, topic:22884”]
development.
[/quote]
[quote=“aap, post:17, topic:22884”]
I am talking about small trees.everybody knows that stumps will turn into useful stuff,
[/quote]Sure, no doubt about that.
The yield of humus could be increased by supplying some extra mineral elements to form neutral humus. (Neutral meaning humic acids are converted to their calcium, magnesium and to lesser extent potassium and possibly ammonium salts to normalize pH of forming humus to neutral range. That stabilizes humus buy slowing it’s natural decomposition. The most stable humus forms when it deposited onto clay particles, the clay capillary structure and capillary pressure soil solution could can attain. Sorry for my excessive and messy explanation attempt. )
Thank you both. What I am taking away is decomposing wood will, in time, return beneficial matter to the soil and when that process begins benefitting the orchard system is not agreed. An earlier comment here, which I have read previously as well is to introduce green manure (one suggestion was rapeseed/brassicas) to handle detrimental nematodes, till under then plant. Ive got 50+ years of leaf litter to content with first after the trees are cut. I cant easily move this leaf litter to compost areas so my thought is to till under this fall, sow with rapeseed, till the rapeseed under in the spring then start planting. Am I moving too quickly? Should I let the whole system settle before planting?
I also have significant amount of land with 8-15%+ slope to plant as an orchard. Ive got sandy loam so great drainage and high organic matter from years of leaf litter. But, I need to utilize cut trees/branches so I plan to install long trunks/branches against two or more new stumps on contour as hugel beds with drainage ditch in front. That should improve water retention a bit, reduce any erosion from disturbing the beds and hopefully accelerate the decomposition process. Any feedback from the group appreciated.