My main problem with the non astringent asians is the super weak flavor. I grow non astringent to sell and astringent for myself.
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@Robert… but there are lots of people on youtube tast testing NAA’s and proclaiming them delicious. Just watched a guy eat Fuyu, Saijo and proclaim them truly Food for the Gods, absolutely delicious. He went on and on about the taste.
I tend to think that i am going to take a first taste and say what flavor ?
My only experience is with wild americans… which the worst of… is very flavorful.
I live in a small town and have never seen a NAA or any kind of Persimmon in a grocery store… so absolutely no experience with them.
If I am going to have a couple of these… and I already have IKKJ… having one that taste good, even better after a frost sounds like a plus, Matsumoto seems to be liked by many crunchy, or even quite soft after a freeze.
Sure would be nice if I could taste test these before buying a tree.
TNHunter
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That is exactly what is going to happen. Taste wise there is no comparison. They are still good for others though. I just would not put to much into the nons. Also, the nons for the most part all taste the same.
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I’d strongly recommend that you pay attention to the comments about how J-PCNAs all taste very similar. This is a common observation. It’s also consistent with the fact that the gene pool among J-PCNA varieties is notoriously restricted.
Commercial growers sell some version of Fuyu and Jiro. The many varieties available to us are basically some version of Fuyu and Jiro. So I don’t think you’ll discover anything significantly better. IME, what matters most is that not the particular variety but rather that the fruit is fully ripe.
Regarding ripeness, I think freezing is a bad idea and unnecessary. J-PCNAs ripen quite well indoors. Here, I pick my IKKJ anytime from mid-October to early November, when they are bright orange but never frozen. Then I ripen them indoors. What you have to ensure is that the fruit gets to a reasonably ripe stage before you pick it (before a freeze). I think you should prioritize cold hardiness and early ripening. That’s a big enough challenge.
One last note. I found out last year that if I dehydrate the ripe fruit somewhat, the flavor and sweetness is concentrated. The difference is quite dramatic.
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I’ve tried several varieties of non-astringent Kaki persimmons, and they really do taste very similar as most everyone seems to say who tries a bunch. Perhaps if I had all of them ripened at the same time and tasted them together I might notice a difference, but I’m guessing not. If I’m just going to eat a piece of fruit I’d much prefer an astringent persimmon with a richer flavor, but a crunchy non-astringent is nice cut up in pieces in a salad. Nothing wrong with growing them all if you have the room.
Two other options are to add Nishimura Wase as Andrew suggested earlier, which is a PVNA and can be eaten crunchy when pollinated and has a very nice rich taste. For me, they are much better than regular non-astringent and have a flavor that is unique and different from most astringent Kaki persimmons as well. The downside is you’ll need pollination which will mean seeds in it and in any other Asian persimmons close by. Maybe with the size of your property you could address that by putting any Asian persimmons you want pollinated all in one spot and it would be far enough away from the others. Or you might be fine with seeds, which I certainly am.
The other option is to remove the astringency from astringent Asian persimmons with CO2, vacuum packing, alcohol vapor or one of the other techniques, so you can eat them while still crunchy. I buy Hachiya by the box when they come into the local markets in the late fall and take the astringency out of some of them with the alcohol technique and eat them crunchy. I think the CO2 method is very easy as well, but I’ve only used alcohol. Astringent persimmons with the astringency removed are definitely more interesting to me flavorwise than non-astringent persimmons. When eaten while still crunchy they aren’t as fully ripe as when soft, so the flavor isn’t at its peak, but they are still very good. This works with some hybrids as well and I grafted the hybrid Gora Roman Kosh this year specifically to use in this way. It is a very large hybrid that is around 75% Asian I believe and probably close to the size of some full Asian non-astringent types. I have Gora Goverla as well.
In regards to taste tests, you have Gerardi mulberry which is sweet but I don’t find nearly as full flavored as a good blackberry. I’ve had two different people come to get other plants from me and taste the Gerardi and say it is the sweetest, best fruit they’ve had. Their pallette is just for sweet, so they loved them. I’d reach for a handful of Ponca blackberries instead if I had to choose one.
You might post something in the trading section to see if someone can ship your some non-astringent persimmons to taste this fall. Then you’ll have a better idea how many spots in your orchard they deserve.
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Matsumoto and TamKam are good choices for quick growth. I have both and they easily outpace the others I have. Matsumoto is also known as Early Fuyu. TamKam is a Korean persimmon. Like jrd51 said I would look into features other than taste on these.
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Thanks to all for the straight talk on these NAA persimmon options.
I guess the HEPPY liffestyle folks would be in the Gerardi mulberry super fan list. They just go on and on about how delicious Matsumoto is…
Sweet with a little flavor must be about all they need… to proclaim something delicious.
I continued to search youtube last night and found a ross raddi video… he was praising his two american persimmons… and he said the NAAs are nothing… just nothing.
Perhaps I should just wait for fruit from my IKKJiro… before I really seriously consider adding another.
If I could get a scion of that new early one that OGW has… Cardinal … and graft it to my super growing wild dv rootstock… i might give that a try.
I have some wild dv in my field now that have grown 5 ft already this year… they were bushhogged last october.
If no scion is available for Cardinal might just see if i can purchase one from OGW… i have a store credit with them that i need to use.
In the OGW description of Cardinal… it says…
Spectacular NA korean variety… earliest ripening… 2-3 weeks before other varieties. Large, Sweet, great for fresh eating. No mention of flavor…
If they all taste about the same… at least it sounds like this one may actually ripen earlier than IKKJiro.
If i grow it a year… can produce my own scion to graft on my wild dv super growers.
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Remember that the cold-hardiness of the OGW offering Cardinal (aka Soshu?) is unknown. If it is Soshu, the parentage is a mix of other J-PCNAs that are not especially cold-hardy. If I remember correctly, the facility in Japan where it was created is in Z7B or 8A. So you shouldn’t assume survival at 0 - 5 F.
[FWIW, OGW’s “Cardinal” is, as they state, the Korean variety Jo-choo. But it seems highly likely that Jo-choo is actually the Japanese variety Soshu, which is the earliest-ripening J-PCNA according to the breeders.]
Re taste, I’m in the camp that does not require super sweetness. Anyway, while Ross is entitled to his opinion, you should keep in mind that J-PCNA persimmons are a huge seller worldwide. For example, you’d find tons of them in farmers’ markets in CA. So they are not nothing. Millions of consumers love them. Taste-wise, Cardinal is probably typical.
Finally, let me suggest a compromise. The hybrid variety JT-02 (aka Mikkusu) [maybe you have it already] seems hardy to roughly -15 F, so it definitely ticks the “cold hardy” box. Re taste, while I’ve managed to ripen only one fruit so far (last year) on a recently grafted branch (there are a couple dozen this year), the taste seems very good. I’d say it’s like a ripe PCNA with extra caramel, though I’ll leave it to others who have eaten more of them to weight in with more authority. The only downside is that the fruit is astringent until fully ripe, so you can’t eat it crisp as you can a Jiro or Fuyu. But it seems to lose astringency readily as it ripens so that’s really not an issue if you prefer the soft texture and stronger flavor of a fully ripe non-astringent. Until someone breeds a non-astringent hybrid, this may be your best choice.
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@jrd51 … thanks for the details.
I grafted JT02 onto one of my wild DV super growers this spring… the central leader shoot is 9 ft 3 inches long now.
Many of my persimmon grafts to these wild dv have put on over 6 ft of growth this year… prok, ws810, jt02, kassandra, rich tooie… but JT02 has been the growth champion.
Glad to hear the flavor details from you.
Love caramel flavor… that is what makes rich tooie my favorite persimmon so far.
I have yet to try any others but the wilds here.
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You may want to give an astringent asian a try. Not quite as good as an American, but they are bigger with no seeds. I’d go with Saijo in that regard.
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Based on what I’ve read, Saiyo is not so cold hardy. In full disclosure, I have it growing both in the ground and in a pot. These are two young trees, grafts on DV seedling rootstock from May 2020. I think of the in-ground Saiyo as a serious stretch for Z6B. Last winter I covered the tree just as I cover my in-ground figs and it survived. But as the tree grows, that option will be untenable. So I fully expect it to succumb in some future winter.
The same seems true of Nishimura Wase. If you want a more cold hardy PVNA type, you can try Giboshi but you’d still need a pollinator.
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Saijo is supposed to be somewhat hardy. I have two of them in ground with zero issue so far 7A. I’m thinking yours will be fine as well. As for TNHunter, he is warmer than both of us.
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@Robert – hope you’re right. How long have you had the trees and what is the coldest they’ve endured?
My notes, which compile data supplied by others, suggest that Saiyo is OK down to around 0 F. According to the USDA, the average low in Z7A is 0 - 5 F, which means that TNHunter will be good most of the time. But there are deviations below the average.
Just to illustrate the point, I’m borderline Z6B/7A. So I should expect the average winter low to be no worse than -5 F. IKKJ is reportedly good to roughly -5 F. For many years it was fine. This year I enjoyed a brief deviation to -7 F. All the 1-2 year old wood was killed; it took an extra 4-6 weeks for any buds to emerge. I’m pretty sure that if there had been 1-2 more nights that cold, the trees would have been killed outright. Same for Saiyo, I think.
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October is early in Portland.
I suspect that guy likes Matsumoto Wase over those others because it is non-astringent, and perhaps early enough to ripen in WA state, surely not for being more flavorful.
edit: I see a later post suggests the guy likes Matsumoto Wase soft better than some of the astringents. I’m a bit surprised. I generally don’t like softened non-astringent persimmons - its a texture thing, but also I don’t like plums or peaches that can be scooped with a spoon, or drunk through a straw either.
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Hey all… not really interested in astringent asians… yes… understand they should be more flavorful but when i am finished with adding persimmon varieties at my new home place I will most likely have this…
Astringent Americans
Mohler and possibly Early Jewell H-118 for early varieties.
Morris Burton
Rich Tooie
100-46 Lehmans Delite
H63A
WS8-10
Some of those i have now and will add others next spring. I have rootstock prepped.
Astringent Hybrids
Journey (very early)
Kassandra
JT02 Mikkusu
Nakittas Gift
Zima Khurma
4 of those already established… adding Journey next spring.
As you can see… if I want a great tasting astringent persimmon… got plenty of those.
Non astringent asians
IKKJiro. … i have this one now.
I think a persimmon like this my wife and daughter might enjoy… and i could sure dehydrate some and see how i like them.
They may also be popular with the average towns folk at our local farmers market.
Since it seems the NAAs all taste about the same… it seems my best bet would be to have one that ripens earlier than my IKKJiro to extend the season.
That new Cardinal from OGW seems to be the only one offering the hope of ripe fruit 2-3 weeks earlier than IKkJ. There are some unknowns with it… exactly how cold hardy is it ? but I can take that risk.
Are there any other NAAs known to regularly ripen significantly earlier than IKKJiro ?
Thanks
TNHunter
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I’ll have a Dar Sofievkiy in my hands this afternoon. I should be able to cut a few pieces of scionwood this winter. If interested, let me know and I’ll keep one for you.
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@Fusion_power … YES… would love to have a scion of that.
I looked up some details on it (posted on this site) Z5 hardy, attractive large fruit 150 g, very early…
Sounds like i could use that instead of Journey hybrid… for a early hybrid persimmon.
Hopefully we can work out a trade.
Thanks
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You sent me Early Mac scionwood a few months ago. I owe you one!
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Anyone know for sure exactly how early Dar Sofiyivky is ?
I found mention of it being very early and ripening ahead of any persimmon… but that may have been any persimmon in Ukrain ?
Per Cliff at nuttrees.net… Journey hybrid ripens first at his place (he gives no date)… but does state that Mohler starts ripening early August… so Journey must be a little earlier than that ??
Does Dar Sofiyivky ripen early August ? Is it that early… if not I may want to add it and Journey.
Including @Harbin … who seems to know Dar Sofiyivky well…
Thanks
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My understanding is that Dar Sofiyivky ripens well ahead of other well-known hybrids, like Nikitas Gift, but I’m not sure that will put it ahead of Journey which sounds like it ripens even before the earliest Americans. Hopefully, Harbin can give us some insight, although it is always hard when people don’t have all the varieties in one place.
With a lot of people adding all these new persimmons it will be great when we can get a comparison of ripening times from one orchard. Cliff has been the closest we’ve had to that, but I don’t think he has Dar Sofiyivky fruiting yet.
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