Ok… I have like 10 varieties of persimmons started on my place now… mostly Americans and Hybrids… one Asian IKKJ.
I will be grafting 4 more American/Hybrid varieties next spring…
But the reason for this post is to get your thoughts on what other variety of Non Astringent, Asian Persimmon to plant that would be a good compliment to my IKKJ (planted this spring).
Of course it needs to be able to survive my Southern TN, Zone 7a climate. We had a low of 3F last winter… the coldest in probably the last 10 years.
From what I can tell IKKJ (Jiro) ripen mid/late… starks says Sept/Oct… other sources said Oct/Nov.
Not sure exactly when it will ripen in TN… but will find out in a few years.
It would be nice to have a earlier ripening variety to extend the season.
Would also be nice to have something that taste a little different than Jiro.
Who really likes his Matsumoto persimmon. He has 5 varieties including Nakittas Gift and Kassandra and he says the Matsumoto is by far his favorite. He is in Washington I think and growing them successfully.
At One Green World they have a “Early Fuyu Asian Persimmon” that in the details says is AKA by Japanese name Matsumoto Wayse Fuyu. It says it is a early ripening variety… but then they say ripens in October. Not so sure I trust their ripening details.
They say hardy to 0F… and that would be cutting it close here. Might work.
Are there any Asian varieties, non astringent, known to do well in zone 6/7, that are quite flavorful (IYO) and ripen earlier than IKKJiro ?
I am not looking for American persimmon flavor in these… but something decent… good for an Asian.
Maybe you can consider Nishimura Wase. That one will definitely taste different. This variety is my earliest ripening Asian persimmon, but the flavor improves if you leave them on the tree longer after they color up. They start coloring up at the end of September, but I normally don’t eat them until the end of October or later.
It must be pollinated somewhat thoroughly to be nonastringent though. Sometimes it produces enough male flowers on its own to self pollinate, but that might not be reliable, and an additional compatible male flowering tree would be needed to assist.
All of my PCNA varieties are usually not satisfactory when picked earlier than November here, and many weren’t even picked and eaten until after they defoliated towards Thanksgiving.
This is a question I’ve explored ad nauseam. It became especially pertinent this year, as my three IKKJs were nearly killed by the combination of a warm January and a pair of -5 to -7 F nights in early February. Pretty much all growth less than 3 years old was killed. So we’re in a “rebuilding year.”
I’m gonna preface the rest of my response by noting that ALL PCNAs except few rare Chinese varieties (C-PCNA types) originate from Japan (J-PCNA types). But of course some varieties have been exported from Japan, grown elsewhere, possibly interbred, definitely renamed. So we can sort the universe into (1) J-PCNA varieties that come directly from Japan, and (2) J-PCNA varieties that come indirectly via other countries such as Korea, which was colonized by the Japanese.
As far as I know, there are no PCNAs coming directly from Japan that are any more cold hardy than IKKJ, which is generally considered OK to ~ -5 F. There are a few J-PCNAs that come indirectly via Korea that are reported by some growers to be OK to -5 F or possibly lower, e.g. Gwang Yang, Tam Kam. There is also a report from Cliff England that Chinebuli, which came indirectly via Eastern Europe, survived a winter at -10 F but this result has not been replicated by others. Personally, I am highly skeptical that there is any J-PCNA variety that is reliably more cold hardy than IKKJ.
Note that cold hardiness is really not a bright line. Persimmon cold hardiness depends on time of year. Trees are more hardy in the deep dormancy and persistent cold of Jan/Feb than when beginning to emerge in inconsistent cold in March. Persimmon cold hardiness depends especially on the pattern of warm and cold. Trees are more hardy during persistent cold than during fluctuating warm and cold. So any single “bright line” number (e.g., -5 F) is misleading in its false precision.
Hi Trev,
My friend here @ramv could probably tell you more than I about survivability in cold weather. He grows a number of persimmons that ripen here and should easily ripen in your region with a longer hotter growing season. He’s from CA and knows a lot about what works here and there! So recommend consulting Ram. Best wishes
Dennis
Got this Maryland (zone 7a and 7b) study from Facebook’s persimmon group. Apparently Tam Kam is the most cold hardy non-astringent Asian persimmon, confirmed/recommended by Bob, followed by Twentieth Century and Hana Fuyu.
I’m in zone 7a Mid-Atlantic (DC area) and many Asian non-astringent persimmon trees in our area are just regular Fuyu trees bought from local Asian grocery stores. I planted Matsumoto Fuyu this spring, and I expect it to be fine.
I’ve got Fuyu, Jiro, Maekawa Jiro, Matsumoto, Saijo, TamKam, and Giombo. All have survived fine so far 7a. Not all have fruited though, so can not give a taste report.
Hi Trev, responding here because my friend Dennis quoted me.
I really have nothing to add to @jrd51’s comprehensive post. Our winter climate is much milder than yours on the west coast.
I did a few internet searches on Tam Cam… the name means very sweet.
It looks to be a quite large persimmon…
I need more than just sweet… and found this more detailed description.
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Tam Kam Korean Persimmons is sweet and rich in flavor . The fruit is best when it is fully ripened and has a soft texture. It can be eaten fresh or used in recipes, such as baked goods, jams, and sauces.
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Found sources saying it was one of the most cold hardy…
Source on ripening said October and if you have to wait for soft texture… probably November for peak flavor.
Sounds like it may ripen about the same as IKKJiro.
There is not much of a ripening gap in asian persimmon. Not much taste difference either IMO. TamKam and Matsumoto have been pretty aggressive growers for me (6b/7a). That’s who I would go with.
PCNA persimmons all taste alike with minor differences. Izu is the earliest ripening so it seems like it is sweeter when tasted side by side with Jiro which may be still ripening. At peak ripeness, there is no difference.
Perhaps you are used to the rich complexity of American persimmons and expect the same of kakis. You WILL be disappointed.
I agree. After an American or even an astringent asian, the non astringent asians are plain and boring. The people that like them always talk about the crunch and I guess that is their draw.
I’m guessing tam kam might work for you; against the south wall of my detached garage with just being mulched heavily around its fabric pot (didn’t wrap the top at all) it survived -3°F here with only partial dieback to the trunk. Plus there were a lot of temp fluctuations cold-hot. It has survived colder than that at our previous home as well. It has blossomed on and off but not yet kept its fruit…in part this is because I’ve been bad about consistently protecting them over winter.
In prior discussions, some of us concluded that Cardinal is most likely a synonym for the Japanese variety Soshu. This variety is a product of the Japanese breeding program. Based on the data published by the Japanese breeders, Soshu is the earliest-ripening J-PCNA, materially earlier than many others. It also appears to excel in fruit quality. It’s cold hardiness is unknown.
Based on all this, I bought Cardinal last year. But I’m growing it in a pot.
This guy youtube channel… HEPPY lifestyle… he and his family are big fans of Matsumoto persimmon.
Favors it over Nakittas Gift and other varieties.
Many seemed to think it was about preferring Crunchy fruit… but if you check out this video you will see that is not absolutely true. He has some harvested (sounds like after a 30 degree freeze) and they are quite soft… they eat a couple with spoon and just rave about the taste, flavor.
He said that Nakittas Gift Persimmons were not good after a freeze, but the Matsumoto seems to have improved after a freeze.
Looks like it does not have to be about the crunch to like that variety. The ones they are eating and praising… are quite soft, pudding like. Taste better, sweeter than Nakittas gift. Hmmm…
