PCA / PCNA / PVA / PVNA / persimmons and what this all means

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21

I’m still a bit confused PVA vs PVNA.
I would assume based on the naming (by default with no pollination), one is Astringent and the other is NonAstringent, but seems like not the case.
Based on what Barkslip initially said on PVNA “It’s Non-Astringent still so the tree will ripen the fruit vs gas.” he made it sound like its NonAstringent by default (when not seeded) and hence no need to let it ripen on the tree or counter (or gas). and hence if seeds releasing ethanol maybe will just help ripen it faster?

For PVA he made it sound like it only affects the color/flavor.
" PVA - Pollen will change the fruit flavor. This time the A means it needs gas (commercial ripening - CO2 gas) to ripen since the tree alone is not capable of ripening the hanging fruits on it."
Is it only gas that can ripen it? Why not just let it sit on the counter?

Maybe this might help…. if you had to define each it in more chart/table-like way, are these assumptions correct?

##########
PVA:
    Without pollination+seeded:
     flavor: normal/baseline flavor
     flesh color: normal/orange
     astringent or nonastringent:
     astringent when picked colored-up off the tree (like a normal PCA). Needs to sit on counter to ripen (or gas).

     With pollination+seeded:
     flavor: possibly may get a little better flavor
     flesh color: changed/darker
     astringent or nonastringent:
     astringent when picked colored-up off the tree … but becomes soft/non-astringent faster. Maybe It doesn’t have enough PV alleles to do the complete job of ripening (because of modest ethanol production by the seeds)… so still needs to sit on counter (or gas to ripen) like a PCA. Might be edible when its firmer and not completely gooey/soft.

##########
PVNA:
    Without pollination+seeded:
     flavor: normal/baseline flavor
     flesh color: normal/orange
     astringent or nonastringent:
     astringent when picked colored-up off the tree (like a normal PCA). Needs to sit on counter to ripen (or gas).

     With pollination+seeded:
     flavor: possibly may get a little better flavor
     flesh color: changed/darker
     astringent or nonastringent:
astringent when picked colored-up off the tree, but becomes soft/non-astringent much faster since gets a lot of help reducing astringency from significant ethanol production by the seeds (more than PVA)?
Might be edible when its firmer and not completely gooey/soft since it releases even more ethanol production than PVA.

22

I was under the impression that if they’re picked fully mature and starting to change color, you can get most/all persimmons soft ripe (and non-astringent)? With more time hanging on the tree, before it has dropped its leaves, improving the flavor?

The PVNA ones would just be non-astringent when firm ripe if they’re also pollinated (and usually differently shaped than non-pollinated specimens of the same cultivar) as well as darker fleshed than the non-pollinated ones?

That being said, I wasn’t aware there were persimmons that were still astringent when pollinated and also had the darker flesh while still firm ripe (PVA) were a thing? And I didn’t think you could end up with seeded fruit without pollination from some source?

23

As I noted earlier, PVAs are just a lite version of PVNAs. From breeding experiments, it seems that PVNAs have more of the allele that causes seeds to remove astringency. PVAs have fewer. So seeds will not be sufficient to remove astringency from a PVA. FYI many commercial varieties are PVAs, but the grower uses CO2 to remove astringency. PVAs seems very amenable to this treatment.

Yes of course seeds require pollination.

And yes, all persimmons will be non-astringent if fully (soft) ripe.

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