I’d be interested in other people’s thoughts on that as well. I had takes (at least I think so, decent callousing) on the Indian Free scions you sent me last season Bart but the vigor was very low and I eventually lost them at the end of the season.
Bummer. Sorry about that.
I still have some cuttings in my fridge if you want some more…let me know
No worries @Bart. Everything else you sent last year did very well. I’m actually maxed out on stone fruit scions this year so I’ll pass but thanks for the offer. I may take you up on it next year. I’m hoping this year’s grafts do well with this crazy weather. My understocks have been growing for a few weeks now so I did most of the stone fruit grafts last weekend. We’ve had pretty nice weather this past week (highs in 70s) but We’re predicted to catch the tip of the cold weather moving in next week. Luckily, I have most in containers so I’ll be shuffling them in to the garage or sun room during the coming cold.
I don’t consider any peach trees low vigor that I’ve ever grown- if they are’t being challenged by nematodes or water to air issues. Some nectarines are, IME. I got some great growth from IF grafts last year, but with a bark graft you start from scratch. When you graft on a stubbed branch or a vigorous shoot the access to sap is more immediate. Speaking theoretically, here.
I start with wider diameter wood than the graft in the original picture here.
1 Like
I agree with Alan. The only low vigor peach or nectarine I’ve seen were related to a weak rootstock like Citation, a damaged or diseased rootstock, poor soil conditions, or a poor graft union in a weak position on the tree. Give them good roots, good soil, water, and fertilizer and they all grow like weeds.
2 Likes
I do find most nectarines harder to manage for vigorous fresh shoots placed along the entire length of scaffolds. They seem also more susceptible to losing vigor in shaded branches, although peaches are much more susceptible to this than most species. Scott doesn’t see any difference either, which I find baffling as I’ve experienced somewhat less vigor at many sights. Honey Royale, however, is a tiger- as vigorous as any peach I grow. 1 tree, one site.
Thanks @alan and @fruitnut. My grafts this year are to vigorous understock so I’m hoping for good takes and strong growth. IF was the only one last year that didn’t do well so it may have been due to a weak position on the tree.
[quote=“alan, post:2, topic:9754”]
@scottfsmith Scott would this apply to apple trees too? This year I pre-cut some large limbs a month ago planning to cut off another inch or two and bark graft early April. Can’t remember where I got the idea to do this, might have been a mistake? Steve
I don’t see how this would be a problem with apples, as long as the wood you graft to is green and healthy- just cut it back another inch or so before grafting. Sorry to but in.
3 Likes
Not at all Alan- your views always welcome. Thank you for this- my list of Major Mistakes is long enough already. Steve
Yes, it matters a lot less for apples. For years I cut everything off early, then I realized on peach I was getting much more vigor and success on grafts I did not do that on. I also think it helps a bit on apples, not nearly as much as on peaches but things seem to take off a little faster if the cuts are made later.
1 Like
I can see how drying out might matter if you grafted right where you made the cut, but stub cuts create a growth riot at point of cut on apples, even if you make them when they are dormant- I don’t think it makes any difference in that regard so I don’t see how it would adversely affect grafts.
Alan, I thought the same for ten years but have changed my mind in the last few based on observations of top workings. If can affect grafts by the amount of sap wanting to feed them. If you just cut off a whole tree top when leafed out a bit there was a huge sap flow right then, as opposed to a trunk cut months ago with almost no sap flow at the graft point.
But dormant cuts are suppose to increase the vegetative response of apples and pears at the point of cut as opposed to cuts after they flower. Standard advice, when you are attempting to encourage side branches all the way along a stubbed branch or leader, is to wait until buds emerge and flowers open, and that dormant pruning encourages all stimulation at the point of the cut, which logic suggests, would also favor a recent graft.
If you are correct, than this assumption is either wrong, or somehow encouraging vigorous growth of a graft is different than the buds at the end of a stub, which I find counter-intuitive. That assumption is often stated in the writings of my main pruning guru, Bas Van Den Ende, who has studied these matters closely, but you are a careful observer as well. Of course, he is paid to provide guidance for millions of trees, and one would think his job gave him a better opportunity to study cause and affect. Maybe it is about callousing, somehow. Have you tried stubbing early and than cutting back another inch or so when you graft?
Alan, the vegetative response is something that takes a while to get a good head of steam going on. When it starts out its slow, then some sap starts flowing, then it picks up, etc etc etc and pretty soon its going like gangbusters. The point where the graft happens is right in the beginning when things are not going well at all sap flow wise.
In any case like I said I didn’t believe in this until it “slapped me in the face”. It wouldn’t be too hard to test if there were two trees of equal vigor side by side that needed topworking.
1 Like
What about my question of whether you’ve first dormant cut and then cut back a bit more before grafting? Maybe the problem is only right at the cut- as long as there are functioning leaves behind the cut without a damaged capillary bundle I don’t see how yesterdays sap pull helps today’s graft. Maybe the hand slapping your face comes from the left hand instead of the right.
My observations are often accurate while a logical conclusion based on an accurate observation is often mistaken.
So Alan, let’s make all this practical… what’s your prognosis for what I’m planning on doing here when I cut back just above the IF on the limb that I already cut this week? Are you saying that it should be fine to graft?
Well, you can see that I’m trying to figure out the meaning of Scott’s observation, but in the case of your tree, there are no leaves to pull sap up to that scaffold now, even if my hunch about the cause and effect Scott describes happens to be correct. However, he’d probably agree that you should wait for the first 75 degree warm spell (Scott would say 5 degrees warmer) then cut it back another inch or two and graft away- and pray to the green Goddess you get a take of a cleft graft with 2 pieces of wood to hedge your bet.
Now I may understand Scott’s point. On a stub cut that removes all leaf buds capable of pulling sap to anywhere near the point of the graft, waiting until leaf emergence could provide a graft with an advantage, although it seems as though sap would drop as soon as capillary pull is stopped and wouldn’t accomplish what Scott suggests in the first place. But he’s speaking not from theory but actual experience.
OK, but wouldn’t you think that IF graft of a couple years ago would be pulling sap up on that limb, and if so, then wouldn’t cutting a few inches above it work for the other 2 pieces of scion I’m planning on grafting next month?
The vascular system serving that shoot is like a pinched hose and not providing enough water and nutrients to serve what you have going on their already. I doubt a graft to it would even survive. It is the same thing as trying to graft to a tree suffering transplant shock, only in that case the sap flow is cut off by damaged roots and not a calloused up, feeble vascular system between the trunk and the buds on the shoot. . You want to be grafting on a fully functioning vigorous tree part.