Pecan varieties resistant to heat shock

Dax, hahahahahahaha.
Regular, you mean the choice of varieties for my terrain and climate? .
I know that you are a true specialist in the different varieties of pecan nuts.
I have been looking in the different Spanish, French and Italian nurseries, and these are the varieties that I have available for buy.
According to your criteria, which varieties of all these are more resistant to very hot and dry summers:

Mahan
Pawnee
Kiowa
Wichita
Choctaw
Western schley
Mohawk
Badour
Navaho
Cherokee
Cheyenne
Oconee
Shoshoni
Apache
Sioux
Cape fear
Kolby
Kanza
Mulluhay
Warren 346
Yachts 127
Peruque
Osage
Shawnee

Because I have a head like a drum to read on the internet so much cotradictory information.

Regards
Jose

There is a problem with identifying good varieties for your area which mostly gets down to matching a variety with the climate.

Oconee should be considered.
Kiowa tends to overproduce, but can be a productive tree for the first 25 years.
Pawnee is worth considering, but only in a very dry climate.
Sioux is the only other on the list that has potential.

There are other varieties that would work in your climate, but are not in your list that can be purchased in Europe. Western Schley is a possibility, but perhaps needs too long a growing season. Wichita is similar in season requirements, also in disease susceptibility.

Mahan and Desirable would be especially poor choices as Mahan tends to overproduce and Desirable is highly disease susceptible.

1 Like

Hi Fusion_power.
This afternoon she was talking on the phone with a friend who lives in Granada with a large fruit orchard like mine, about varieties of pecans suitable for our climates.
And indeed there is a parameter that I had not counted on.
They must be early or semi-early harvest varieties (not late or extra late), and now you add other interesting parameter, which is to choose disease resistant varieties.
Hahahahahahaha, I really like this kind of riddle.
It is not an easy choice and I have to read a lot of literature about the different varieties.

My friend Antonio Benito, the guy I mentioned at the beginning of this message, is related to the Spanish Fruitex nursery.
This nursery:

http://fruitex.es/pacana-carya-illioniensis

Regardless of the grafted varietal choice, this nursery has a rootstock selected for the pecan that seems to be tremendously good, so I am going to contact them for information.
The choice of pecan walnut varieties is much more difficult than the choice of European walnut varieties.

Regards
Jose

I’m stretching limits quite a bit commenting given that I do not know your climate. If I read properly, your climate is highly influenced by the Mediterranean meaning your winter has very little actual cold weather. Pecans need relatively high temperatures in summer and at least 200 hours (prefer 300 or more) of temperatures below 7C. Unfortunately, I do not know of any pecan varieties that combine short season maturity in less than 180 days with low chilling hour requirements. I’ve gone over the varieties from your list again and have to add Kanza to the suggested list of varieties. It requires about 400 hours of chilling temperatures below 7C, but produces a crop in less than 180 days. There is at least a possibility it can produce a crop in your low chill climate. Also, Pawnee will have similar characteristics needing fairly high chilling hours but able to mature a crop in less than 180 days.

Which brings up one of the usual complaints when attempting to grow pecans. There are often no varieties that fully meet all the desired characteristics.

Regarding rootstocks, I have had good results using Lakota because it produces an abundance of very vigorous seedlings. I tried Kanza but have had problems because only 30% to 40% of the seedlings grow fast enough. There are other varieties recommended for rootstocks in the literature, but I have not tested them in my climate.

1 Like

Hi Fusion_power.
Thank you very much for taking your interest in my future pecan plantation.
No, my climate is not Mediterranean.

This is the location of my town in the Iberian peninsula

My population is located in the central plateau of Spain at an altitude of 600 meters above sea level and corresponds to a continental-type climate.
My region is characterized by being a very extreme climate both in winter and in summer, that is, we have very cold winters in the months of December, January and February (more than 1,500 - 2.000 hours of cold), and an extremely long and hot summer.
So I have no problems with the requirement of winter cold hours.
And the minimum temperatures in the winters of my region are -14 degrees Celsius (6.8 degrees Fahrenheit), only some very punctual time, and only on rare occasions, the minimum temperature of a normal year, is not lower than -8 degrees Celsius (17.6 degrees Fahrenheit), which are temperatures that pecan walnut can withstand without any problem
On the other hand, pecan is a late to very late harvest variety (early harvest varieties ripen at the end of September, and late harvest varieties at the end of November), for this reason even though I have a good enough temperature in The month of November, I prefer varieties that mature in September -October.

There is another very interesting fact, and it is that there are many varieties of pecan, which are susceptible to fungal diseases due to environmental humidity (Scab, Anthracnose, Powdery Mildew, etc …), but my region is characterized by have very little or almost no humidity in the environment, so I have no problems with this type of disease in any of my fruit varieties (for example the apple tree is susceptible to scab, I have more than 200 different varieties of apples, and none have never presented scab problem, and the same for pear trees).

I have some varieties that I like “in the spotlight” hahahahahaha, some of them are available in Europe, and some of them are not available in Europe (there will always be a charitable soul that will send me some cuttings for grafting).

For example, I love these varieties:

  • Pawnee (it is a classic cultivar)

https://cgru.usda.gov/CARYA/PECANS/pawnee.htm

This variety is unknown to me, but I think it has a lot of potential

  • Gloria Grande

https://cgru.usda.gov/CARYA/PECANS/gloriagr.htm

This is another very interesting variety , whit very large fruit

  • Mohawk

https://cgru.usda.gov/CARYA/PECANS/mohawk.htm

  • Mahan (another very classic variety)

https://cgru.usda.gov/CARYA/PECANS/mahan.htm

  • Shoshoni (this is also very good)

https://cgru.usda.gov/CARYA/PECANS/shoshoni.htm

  • Kiowa (also very large fruit)

https://cgru.usda.gov/CARYA/PECANS/kiowa.htm

Etc…

Of all the varieties there are (there are a lot of varieties), I have to preferably select the varieties with large fruit and productive harvest , and those with a paper shell due to their ease of peeling ( for me and for the birds hahahahahaha ) .

I still have to read a lot of literature, but please do not stop advising me, since you have a lot of knowledge of this fruit variety and I do not, and surely there are many parameters that escape me.

Regards
Jose

Think of this in terms of advising someone on apples to grow. Would you say to grow only the largest apples? What if the largest apples don’t happen to be the most productive or the best tasting? The same is true with pecans. Take Mohawk and Mahan off of your list. They are extreme alternate bearers making a huge crop of low quality nuts one year and no nuts at all the next year. Kiowa can do the same, but it is somewhat recommended because it is a productive tree for the first 20 to 25 years. Gloria Grande has problems with kernel quality.

https://pecanbreeding.uga.edu/cultivars/alphabetical-list.html

I went through through the pollination spreadsheet to see which varieties are most likely to produce a crop in your area. Here is the short list: Avalon, Caddo, Creek, Kanza, Lakota, and Pawnee. The major concern is whether or not they can mature a crop in your area given the relatively short growing season. Pawnee and Kanza are good pollination partners and mature in the shortest season.

If you have Microsoft Excel, please pull a copy of the pecan pollination sheet. It will save a lot of time figuring out details about specific varieties. Pecan pollination chart

1 Like

Darrel, I have to admit that you are more right than a Saint.
Damn it, when I see large varieties in size of fruit on the internet (really unaware of their agronomic behavior), my head fills with birds, and it clouds my good judgment.

What is the use of planting trees of a variety that is attractive to the eye because of their size, if later the tree is unproductive, the nut is of poor taste quality, and it is attacked by all existing and future diseases.
The pollination spreadsheet is tremendously useful (thank you very much for giving me the link)

I have to look from another perspective, (My friend Dax made the same kind of recommendations as you)

Dax highly recommended this variety to me

  • Fisher (has a maturity date similar to Pawnee)

https://cgru.usda.gov/CARYA/PECANS/fisher.htm

And right now, my criteria are changed.

At the moment these varieties are safe

  • Pawnee, Lakota and Kanza and Caddo (it is a perfect tandem in pollination).

My friend Antonio Benito, does he have these varieties in his orchard , do you like any of them?

JAMES EARLY, SIOUX, MANDAN, PAWNEE (we know that this variety is suitable), CHEROKEE, OSAGE, MOHAWK, CAPE FEAR and WICHITA

Regards
Jose

Of those varieties,
James Early is very small at 104 nuts per pound, not recommended
Sioux is a possibility but others are better
Mandan has similar issues as Sioux
Cherokee overbears, has problems with nuts darkening, and other growing problems
Osage is a small nut on a productive tree, but not generally recommended
Mohawk is a huge nut on a tree that overbears, not recommended anywhere
Cape Fear matures too late
and Wichita matures too late, overbears, and is disease susceptible

From those varieties, I would suggest only Pawnee, Sioux, and possibly Mandan. As stated earlier, there are much better alternatives with the single exception of Pawnee. Keep in mind that Pawnee is scab susceptible, but in a dry climate such as yours it would not be an issue. I can’t grow Pawnee here where I live without extensive antifungal sprays. If sprayed, Pawnee is one of the best varieties to grow for this region.

1 Like

Darrell, I’ve been reading about the Avalon variety for several days.
It is an incredible variety, it has practically all the positive qualities that a pecan variety can have (it is really impressive), it also has good cross-pollination compatibility with Pawnee (in both ways, pollen shed and receptivity).
I very much doubt that I can find a more suitable variety than Avalon for my edaphoclimatic conditions.

Caddo, Creek and Lakota are very good, but Avalon is a champion.

You have sincerely impressed me.

I have to do a good preparation of the land before planting the trees that will be sent to me from the nursery in winter, to adapt it as much as possible both in pH and in nutritional elements to the requirement of the pecan tree.

From the nursery they will send me the Kanza, Pawnee and Lakota varieties grafted , and some rootstocks
A friend from Germany has the Fisher variety (a very young tree), and Mandan I would like to graft these two varieties.

Darrell I know that Kanza is a good pollinator for Mandan, but I can’t find anywhere which is the right pollinator for the Fisher variety (this variety does not appear in the pollination charts, and there is no information about its pollinators on the internet) Fisher mature at same time as Lucas ( around September 10 -15 ) , but what is your best pollinator? .

Avalon is not logically available in Europe, it is the ideal variety for me, but I have to find a friend who has this variety to be able to graft it.

Regards
Jose

I am looking at your climate… How much precipitation do you get? It looks very dry…
My temperatures are similar to yours, hot summer and cold winter, zone 6 with similar growing season near wichita kansas we get lots of heat, drought, wind, intense sunshine, and i have been reading the ones i am choosing for here in kansas are Hark, Pawnee, Shephard, (and maybe Major), for type 1, for type 2 Kanza, Surecrop, Oswego.
But we might get more rain than you? Is your property dry, or down in a creek bottom? Pecans like water. We are dry but we get 27 inches yearly and more in spring than in fall, and i am in a creek bottom with more moisture.
Here is info from a grower in kansas, his info may benefit you, look up what he has to say on each type, kansas is a fairly harsh climate too:

But you are such a dry climate, dry is my concern, if you are not in a moist creekbottom with above average moisture, it will take forever for your tree to grow, i might would just grow Javids Iranian Almond or sweet pit apricots like Mormon or Montrose.

1 Like

Fisher is similar to Pawnee in pollination characteristics. The reference I have is a book from Wes Rice. Dax may be able to get more info. I’m pretty sure Gary Fernald has Fisher as a mature tree.

Grafting pecans is difficult to very difficult. I recommend getting a rootstock established then grafting it next year. With due diligence, you can use a whip and tongue graft or a cleft graft with reasonably good success.

Avalon’s parents are Gloria Grande and Caddo. It gets disease tolerance from Gloria Grande and outstanding nut quality from Caddo.

PaulinK, if you read above, Jose irrigates using wastewater.

1 Like

Hi Paul.
In my region the climate is quite dry with little rainfall (null in the summer months, July, August and September), but this does not mean that I do not have water, since I have a very important water supply, and canalization of irrigation in all my fruit orchard.
I can grow all kinds of fruit varieties, except varieties that do not tolerate extreme sun and chalky soil (for example kiwi due to environmental dryness and scorching sun suffers from leaf scorch, chestnut due to high pH problems), and a little more .
The rest of the crops bear excellent fruit in my garden.

What varieties do I have in my orchard ?
Almost everything, in many varieties by fruit genus, and all of the highest quality.

  • Peaches ( with red skin and white and yellow flesh, such as Pavias, the type of peach that you there call "cling peach"in the USA )
  • Infinity of varieties of flat peaches
  • Infinity of varieties of apricots
  • Infinity of varieties of pluots
  • Infinity of varieties of cherry trees
  • Infinity of nectarine varieties
  • Infinity of varieties of plum trees (both Japanese, European, and hybrid varieties)
  • Infinity of varieties of persimmons
  • Infinity of pistachio varieties
  • Infinity of varieties of trellised apples (I have some classic varieties, but most of the collection are varieties of excellent quality recently obtained)
  • Infinity of varieties of pears (both very classic French and Belgian varieties, obtained in the 18th and 19th centuries, as well as the most innovative varieties recently obtained).

Etc…

All this obviously cannot be grown without a good water support system (in my case the irrigation is automated).

As I mentioned at the beginning, due to the wastewater treatment station of my business (located next to my fruit orchard), I have all the necessary irrigation water.

For this reason initially ( and mistakenly), I was struck by the varieties of pecan whit large size of fruits.
But after reading and reading a lot, I have seen that I was totally wrong.
It is much more interesting to select varieties that meet these parameters:

  • Very productive varieties in the short and long term
  • Varieties resistant to fungal diseases
  • Early to mid harvest season varieties (never late maturing varieties)
  • Varieties with good taste qualities
  • Make a good varietal choice based on its pollination (group and dates of of sending and receiving pollen )
  • If after all this, a variety of good size fruit enters the group “it is very well welcome”

Darrell, thank you so much for letting me know about Fisher’s pollinator.

It is more than likely that I will have to request help from one of you, to send me cuttings of some good varieties for grafting, because they not will be available in Europe, and my objective is not commercial exploitation but simply to have one or two trees of each variety in my orchard, for family consumption.

Today it is raining precisely (a small summer storm), tomorrow when it will be sunny I want to take some pictures, so that you can see what my fruit orchard is like.
Darrell , "YES " hahahahahahaha, I know perfectly well that the grafting of pecan walnut is not a road of roses.
I have faced many times with such difficulties both in the grafting of the European Walnut, as well as in the grafting of the pistachio (the grafting of the varieties of pistachio on rootstock Pistacea terebinthus , is also quite delicate).

There is a lot of information regarding the grafting systems of pecan walnut, both with large-caliber rootstock, and in young seedlings of 2 to 3 years.

I have quite a lot of experience grafting (discarded cleft graft, I hate this grafting system due to poor union between rootstock and grafted variety).
I like much more systems such as whip and tongue, Patch budding with parallel knife, and especially the chip budding system with forced temperature, this last system gives excellent results in European walnut in young rootstocks of 2 years.

There is not much information about this pot grafting system for pecan walnut and I am sure it is a system that you will like a lot.

This article is from my friend Olivier, it is in French but you will have no problem making a “half decent” translation into English.

https://www.greffer.net/?p=719

And this is an article of mine regarding the grafting of pistachio in winter at forced temperature (it is also in French, but it is very easy to translate)

https://www.greffer.net/?p=793

Darrell, reading about the parenterals of Avalon (Gloria Grande and Caddo), reminds me a lot of a joke that is told a lot in my region, but they were not so successful in the crossing hahahahahaha.

This is the anecdotal joke:

There were two friends in a small town, who were peasants and lived by cultivating the land.
To till the land, one of the two friends had a mare that was very large in size and very strong, but tremendously coward and lazy, and the other friend had a small donkey, very weak, but tremendously brave and hard-working.
One day talking, the two friends decided to cross their two animals, in order to obtain a fantastic result, that is, a mule of great size and strength like the mare, and brave and hardworking like the little donkey.
But what they got was a mule of small size and weak like the donkey, and lazy and cowardly like the mare hahahahahahahahaha .
The crosses do not always go as one expects hahahahahahaha .

Tomorrow if there is sun I will show you some photographs of my orchard, and I think you will see how it is suitable for growing pecan.

Regards
Jose

2 Likes

Thanks Paul for mentioning that.

I have a question for the group. In my yard where my house is, I have only a couple pecan trees. One is a Major, and the other a wild seedling. About a month ago I grafted the wild seedling over to Hark (from a Hark tree planted at the orchard).

Here is a picture of the graft I took last week.

Here’s the problem. For some reason I was thinking Hark was a type 2 pollenizer, which is what the other Major tree in my yard needs. I just now realized my mistake.

The Major tree has produced pecans the last couple years without any identifiable pollenizer in the area. Obviously it’s going to be more productive with a suitable pollenizer close by. In my yard I also have a shagbark hickory (Grainger variety)

I know it’s possible for cross pollination between some hickories and pecans. Is it possible for Grainger to pollenize a type 1 pecan?

2 Likes

Very good Jose, sounds like you have a good plan going. My trees are small, but from my reading everything I can, to choose my young scions, I think, from what I have read, my top pick for type 1 would be Hark or Shephard, and for type 2 probably Kanza or Surecrop or a bit later is Oswego that should be ok? If your grow season is a lot shorter than central Kansas you might want to try earlier varieties like Warren346 and Snaps if people think they can take your heat? The orchard I linked to is in kansas, he grows them all and kansas gets the heat! I have 2 big 80 year pecans in my yard, huge seedling trees, baking in this 100F+ heat this week. We get bad droughts too. I have a friend down at Del Rio, Texas with a big old pecan orchard, that produces great, lots more heat and drought than kansas! Probably hotter than your location. He brought me some nuts this spring, no irrigation the last decade. I dont know his varieties but I could ask. I actually was originally wanting the shorter season Warren346 and Snaps but decided my growing season was suitable for the other ones which are more midseason ripening. I like the idea of at least two cultivars of type 2 and two of type 1, to get better or more sure pollen overlaps in case on some years one is later to bloom or shed or receive etc, I tend to go a bit all-out on things lol.

@Olpea good questions! I dont know, but one question I have, is it possible some cultivars have a bit of their own bloom pollen shed/reception overlap, making them have a bit of self-fertility? I read of at least one that did but I cant remember which one. Most of my grafts are this year, but when my trees get an extra twig i will be glad to send you some scion for a limb of type 2. Surecrop should have a twig for you come Feb since it’s 5’ tall. I actually have an extra kanza leftover in the fridge but with this heat it might be unlikely to take this late?

Thank you very much for the kind offer Paul!

Actually, I have a type 2 at the peach orchard (Kanza) just not at the house. I may just end up grafting another full pecan tree (type 2) here at the house to make sure the pecans at the house have adequate pollenizers.

1 Like

Hi @Olpea I suggest you bring another type 2 variety such as Kanza to your home orchard. I don’t know the answer why Major is being pollinated.

Hi @Jose-Albacete forget Fisher. It’s one of the first I or my friend Gary Fernald recommend to those in Chicago, IL. because it’s colder there than here. I don’t know how to “equate” your climate to the pecan varieties I’m able to grow. All those except Pawnee don’t mature here that he is recommending to you, therefore, I do not know those varieties.

Glad you’re getting excellent help.

3 Likes

Kanza matures here. I missed that. Kanza I can see why Darrel is recommending. It’s a southern x northern pecan.

That’s all I got & nothing more.

1 Like

Barkslip, the disparity is because he has a climate strongly influenced by location. He can grow varieties such as Avalon which is an early maturing variety. Kanza is a good choice, however, it makes relatively small nuts compared to other varieties with potential in his climate. Please note that the varieties I suggested as most appropriate are early maturity with late September or early October nut drop. If you look closely at a map, he is near 40 degrees latitude which is roughly comparable to your location, however, his climate is dramatically different.

1 Like

Hi Mark, welcome again to this post from the “brave” hahahahahaha, one of these days we have to talk long and hard about peach varieties (I know you like good peaches).

I see that I am not the only one who tries to form his orchard of pecans trees with suitable varieties.
In the end we will turn this thread into something useful.

To be as accurate as possible in terms of the climatic data of my population, I am a few kilometers below the parallel 40 North latitude, that is, about 200 kilometers south of the city of Denver (Colorado), and seeing the physical map of states United, my climate has to be very, very, very similar to the climate of central Kansas or Colorado in terms of temperatures and length of summer, but with low humidity.

I calculate that more or less as the area within the blue trace.

As I told you, I am going to put some photographs of my orchard, so that you can see only a small detail of what I grow.

Stone fruit in bloom this spring, and in its current state today

Plums and pluots in bloom this spring and today

Some pistachios

Some cherry trees

Some apple trees

Some pear trees

Some apricots

So you can see, water is not a problem, but I have to respect the varieties originally selected, since they are the ones that I consider to be the best adapted to my conditions, despite the fact that I am adding more varieties, because I am finding more interesting varieties and I want to ask your opinion (before making any silly mistake).

These are the varieties currently assured:

  • Pawnee
  • Avalon ( the most important for me )
  • Lakota
  • Kanza
  • Caddo
  • Creek

Ok Dax, we remove Fisher from the equation and ask Darrel what he thinks of these other varieties.

Darrel, or any other partner of the forum with information.

Now comes when I need advice again about these varieties

  • Lipan
  • Mandan

And the new varieties

  • Eclipse
  • Excel

Regards
Jose

1 Like

Lipan is scab susceptible. I have not propagated it due to too many failures of USDA varieties grown in my climate.

Mandan has some potential. I can’t grow it due to disease problems, but your climate would prevent most issues.

Excel is a definite no-go due to mid-October maturity. Your growing season is not long enough.

That leaves Eclipse. There is a moral issue with propagating Eclipse. USDA produced the variety in 1963 as a cross of Mohawk X Starking Hardy Giant, a full sibling of Pawnee. Some zealous growers propagated it during the time it was supposed to be on trial by universities. Along the way, someone forgot that they had grafted a tree and eventually sold rights to the tree to a man who patented it and now sells trees. The moral issue is over purchasing trees that were illegally patented. The USDA does NOT patent any trees they release. Beyond the patent issue, the variety is only marginally good in terms of nut quality and production. It has the advantage of early nut maturity but nut size is mediocre at 65 per pound and overall nut characteristics are nothing to brag about. I’ve looked at mature trees at Auburn and tested some of the nuts. IMO, the seedling tree I found in Florence, AL is a better nut all around.

http://www.alabamapecangrowers.com/cultivars.html

1 Like