I don’t post much here but do follow the conversations a bit. I hope you don’t mind if I point out that it is a little bit amusing to hear that statement from you, given the often heated discussions on persimmon origins and genetics - especially when it comes to breeding those elusive non-astringent hybrids .
I actually agree with you that it is far more likely that Chinebuli is just a renamed other cultivar, but I’d rather go by a proper source that at least has provided comparative data on the two to narrow it down. By stating that they are the same even if you only just have a hunch risks making things more complicated down the line. I am sure those helpful LLMs will make sure that it is eventually treated as fact if only enough people repeat it as such.
Maybe someone can provide a good source that will let this go to rest. Otherwise, like I said, I may be able to provide a bit more information in a few years.
On a side note why I think it is important to try and limit false information: I have the ‘Pam’iat Pasenkova’ hybrid cultivar and wanted to find out where it comes from. Sources either claim it is a Budsport from Rosseyanka or Nikita’s Gift. I tried to dig deeper and on this ukrainian/russion forum here https://forum.vinograd.info/showthread.php?t=20368 it is claimed the cultivar may in fact be a sister seedling to Nikitskaya Bordovaya /Nikita’s Gift. I think this evidence is compelling but somehow it is seldomly mentioned so the confusion continues.
I can definitely respect your care and diligence. If you are directly accessing a Ukrainian forum, then you are more diligent and knowledgeable than I. In the U.S., Chinebuli has been hyped as a cold hardy PCNA, usually by people trying to sell it. I find the self-serving hype irritating. If any of that irritation seeped through in my message, I apologize.
For now, I am perfectly willing to suspend judgment while we seek better data.
Of course I don’t mind. You’re right to imply (I think) that I am deep down very data-driven. But the reality is that we don’t always have good data. So if we really want to answer a question (e.g., how can we breed a non-astringent hybrid?), then sometimes we have to squeeze the available data until it squeaks. By which I mean combine the data with some plausible assumptions to arrive at tentative answers (e.g., back-cross JT-02 x Taishu).
Cliff sent me scionwood of Hokkaido, nearly 25 years ago - before the Easter 2007 Big Freeze Disaster that killed off all of my kakis and Persian/Carpathian walnuts. I did not get a successful graft of it.
Yeah, when I started to get a bit more into Persimmons chinebuli was the talk of town. I can understand the frustration when it didn’t end up performing as h(y)oped. No need to apologize - I’m at fault here since I have read quite a few of the older threads so I was well aware of your eventual ‘falling out’ with this cultivar.
Here in Austria I have a Jiro, which i got from Harbin many years ago, planted outside that so far has survived largely unscathed (fingers crossed since this year we had a very long prolonged cold spell for several weeks with lows of around -12C, the location is very wind exposed). My Chinebuli, which i got from a Slovakian nursery is still in a large pot (for several years now, its like 1.5m tall) though last year and this year it was overwintered standing outside, so its also unclear if there will be damage this year.
I’d say temperature wise where I am it is right at the edge where PCNA Kakis could be grown outside without protection (the last few years it rarely dipped below -10C, ignoring the required length of season to get good fruit for now) - tough a bit longer in the past there have been winters that went to -20C. Global warming may be able to push us just far enough up to make it feasible without risking total loss. So even if Chinebuli is just a sport of Jiro that is a minuscule bit hardier it could make a difference for those rare events. If not - ah well I just have two Jiros instead of one. I do hope that I will be able to provide some data on this in the future but for now it is a waiting game.
I’m on the edge too. FWIW, based on 10 years experience: My three Ichi-Ki-Kei-Jiro trees seem OK down to around -3 F / -19.4 C. But 2 consecutive nights at -5 F / -20.6 and -7 F / 21.7 killed all 1-2 year old wood. The 3 year and older wood survived.
So it seems to me that -20 C is the rough boundary.
It’s been a while since my last post but I think I have some useful information about Nikita’s Gift and its cold hardiness. That said, Nikita’s Gift is weaker than most trees when it comes to late spring frosts, and this should be considered when planting it. I have heard other members make mention of this attribute but I didn’t realize how bad it is. It isn’t sensitive like a tomato but it also isn’t as robust as my other trees and is somewhere in between.
First in Utah we really didn’t have much of a winter this year. It was dryer and warmer then I have ever seen and I think my low was only around 10F. This led to an early spring and naturally all of my trees started to bud out too early. The Nikita is on its 3rd year of growth and was coming out of dormancy looking very healthy when the first frost hit, it made it through the winter just fine at 10 F. Over the next couple of weeks we had more frosts and I lost most of the fruit on all of my trees. I should mention I also covered the Nikita and my figs on the cold nights knowing they would need additional protection. This was from dieback on these trees from late frosts in previous years.
The difference is the Nikita not only lost its buds but had substantial dieback on stems about 3/8” diameter or smaller. No other tree suffered this kind of damage and only lost their buds and some early leaf growth. Trees that only lost their fruit buds are Rosseyanka, peaches, pluots, hardy kiwi, hardy pomegranate (less cold hardy for minimum temp no damage from late frost),almonds, apples, pawpaws, figs etc. I would really like this tree to work but don’t like starting over with it almost every year due to die back. Hopefully someone else can make a more informed decision when considering this tree. I wouldn’t rule it out but it is good to know what to expect. Thanks Greg
Would it make sense to try one of the offspring of Nikita’s Gift released by the Ukrainian breeders, such as Universal, Chuchupaka, and/or Dar Sofiyivki? These are all more cold-hardy; Ukrainians claim -26 to -27 C, -15 to -17 F.
FWIW, I have a young NG in a pot. It hasn’t ripened fruit yet. I grafted Chuchupaka last year, Dar Sof this year; and I plan for Universal next year.
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