I’ve read that persimmons are especially prone to budsports, so maybe we’ll get a real winner if we keep pushing our luck with current varieties.
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Those are good traits Ichi/IKKJ has, to come out of dormancy slower and ripen sooner.
Mr Cliff seemed to have best results with Chinebuli long term. But yeah I am not able to compare them since I am just getting Chinebuli growing. I had a Jiro years ago at my perents in louisiana, but thats not suitable for a comparrison. And like you say, even if it is different, or more cold hardy, it could be a budsport or a seedling or closely related yet significant differences for 6b-7a growers. Interesting topic. If you want to get some good feedback you might want to email Mr Cliff and get his thoughts 
I plan to cross Chinebuli and JT-02 with NGxThor and then cross their seedlings with each other. And what we need is a PCNA that produces male flowers and has that dominant NA trait. I bet there’s one growing wild in Korea or something, who’s ready for a trip?
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It is supposed to be Szukis but looking up its name I see that Seedsavers Exchange info suggests I need to remove the many male branches for it to get up size- the fruit is very small for a selected variety but sweet and good. I’m guessing it must be self fertile given how many seeds it produces- which I intend to use some of to start new trees for grafting purposes now that I’ve discovered how to succeed at it.
Lee Reich originally consulted on an orchard I took over and Szukis is his favorite and that’s where I got the wood. What level of experience this is based on, I have no idea, but the small fruit is good enough to largely slack my jonsing for persimmons. This year the three trees (bushes at this point, all connected to the same root system) bore more fruit than I could use. I did purchase fuyus on two occasions but that was about enough unless some really nice ones come in from Spain at my nearby high-end market. Shaped like Saijo but non-astringent. I believe it’s a special process and not the variety.
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Oh ok good deal. I imagine you could graft onto one of those for some quicker sizeable fruit.
Maybe graft Inchon kaki, and the super hardy hybrids with nice fruit : JT-02 and NB-02 Zima Khurma.
And Gora Goverla hybrid is big kaki size fruit and so far seems probably as hardy as Inchon, it could be the biggest fruit of any hybrid that is looking dependable in zone 6b.
Mr Cliff has all of those.
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No one seems to mention Hana Fuyu - another PCNA with obscure origin. I am currently testing it in
Zone 7. Hopefully it will be early enough in my climate to colour up and ripen in the box inside. Hardiness is affected by wood tissue maturity: late varieties may not mature sufficiently to make it through the winter.
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It’s offered in the U.S. but it’s reportedly late-ripening and not especially cold hardy. If the seller tells me it’s hardy only to Z7, which I suspect is an exaggeration, I’m ruling it out here.
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@jrd51 Yeah I would be skeptical unless i heard some reports from growers i could verify. Probably more of a -4F± for to the middle of zone 7. As with most kaki.
Just to help everyone out. You can get historical temperature reports for any zip code and for any length of time. The wording when getting the report says you are ordering the report, but you are not buying them, just ordering them from the servers.
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Tony,
How did those JT-02 trees turn out last year? Inquiring minds… 
Out of 15 or so JT-02 trees. 2 three years old with a caliber of 3 inches survived the -31F polar vortex. I potted them up for the move next March. JT-02 can handle the -27F to -28F OK for me but -31F is death.
This May I regrafted JT-02 to some of the large rootstocks that were JT-02 that got killed by the Polar Vortex.
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I just had the chance to review the 110 threads above, great info and helps to learn about the various factors that may affect cold hardiness and survivability of persimmons.
I’d be interested to learn what techniques have been successful to winterize borderline NA varieties in Z6a. I’m just south of Worcester for those living in New England. I have had discussions on this topic with @jrd51 and will comment more below on that.
The 3 varieties I have from Just fruits and exotics are: Ichi, Tam Kam, Gwang Yeng. All are reported to be hardy to -10F although as pointed out above there are so many factors to weigh.
I plan to protect the 3 trees with 2 at 4’ tall with 1.25” caliber trunk, and the Ichi at 6’ tall (produced 5 fruit this year!) and 2” trunk.
Considerations:
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I plan to surround the trees with a round 2’ diameter x 6’ high sturdy metal fence material.
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I will wrap it with 1-2 layers of bubble wrap (pool solar blanket)
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here is my question: do I fill the interior of the tube enclosure with leaves and straw before covering the top with bubble wrap? Or is it better to leave the interior space with air (this is the method @jrd51 uses and recommends, and has amazing mature Ichis growing in zone 6b totally unprotected. There is more info on those in the thread above)
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I see pros/cons to both methods, and ultimately want to use the method that is most proven to promote the least dieback from experience, vs me experimenting with me 3 fairly expensive and very healthy trees in season 1 (planted them dormant in March 2022).
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obviously the ground contains natural heat that will hopefully find its way up into the 2’ protected space for both methods.
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Fill w/ leaves/straw thoughts/questions:
- pros: Will heat travel up through the leaves to keep the interior space warmer than the outside air? Can heat travel up the trunk and avoid wind burn/desiccation? Will leaves insulate and prevent Sun from waking up the buds too early in spring.
- cons: Will the leaves/straw filling the space actually prevent that ground heat from rising into the space? Will the leaves cause mold? -
Empty space wrapped in bubble wrap thoughts:
- pros: Will air create a mini convection circulating air from the ground up as warm we air rises? Will open environment prevent mold?
- cons: Will the Sun warm the enclosure quickly on mild sunny days in early March and April, well before the last frost causing early bud damage or death? On cold nights Will the interior and exterior temps be identical due to no interior insulation?
Is there a better method to protect the trees??
I have created a very robust method to successfully protect about 28 fig trees, but the persimmons are too big for this. See here for figloo I built in 2021.
I’d love to hear folks from zones 5-6 thoughts + expertise on winterizing persimmons!! And I’m sure this can help others push the limits of the zone we live in
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Welcome, Jimmy. I am in Worcester County, too. You are way more dedicated to zone push than me. I wrapped my Nikita’s Gift for three years and let it go unprotected since then. I put Kassandra in the fall of 2021, unprotected.
The three varieties you mentioned esp. Ichi and Tam Kam (don’t know much about Gwang Yeng) are not as cold hardy as the hybrids I grow.
@galinas used to live in Worcester in zone 5, and winter-protected her IKKJ but she moved. @smc grows several cold hardy persimmons in MA zone 6. I think he does not protect his trees.
Sorry I could not give you any suggestion as I gave up on winter protecting fruit trees. Good luck with your endeavor.
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The first year(2017-2018, Lullaby for persimmon ) with Ichi, I mulched it with leaves and wrapped it in several layers of the fabric and tarp just to find in spring that it froze out to the mulch level leaving just three live buds. It grew back from these three buds and I built a structure around it, covered the structure with insulation and plywood with a heat lamp(reptiles style), small fan and thermostat inside. I kept temperature above 25 F whole winter long(2018-2019). I continued to cover and heat it lowing min temperature to 15F by the winter of 2020-2021. By the winter 2021-2022 it overgrew the structure and I left it unprotected, but winter was very mild. I had my first and last crop from it this year, we sold the house. So I have no chance to see how it will do in a more harsh winter . I suspect the first year was so bad because it was grown in a very mild climate of California. Better protection needed for young trees, then looks like they do acclimate.
Great thread @PaulinKansas6b. Shoot me a message and let me know what is working for you long term. Since we are both in Kansas we need to compare notes on fruit trees.
Updating the record for IKKJ: Last February (2023), after a generally warm winter, we had two nights at -5 F and -7 F. My three IKKJs suffered a near-death experience. All wood 2 years and younger died. I thought the trees were totally dead. Friends cut down their trees. But after roughly 6 weeks, buds erupted from older wood. I concluded that sustained cold at ~ -5 F or colder would kill these trees.
Re Chinebuli – Cliff’s tree is dead, right? Does anyone own one that has survived -5 F? My reading of the anecdotal reports is that claims about its cold-hardiness were overly optimistic, probably based on some random impacts (e.g., maybe Cliff’s tree was buried in snow).
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I was wondering this same thing. I was debating ordering scion wood for Chinebuli, but the lack of people having success with it leaves me fearful of wasting time on it. I’ve got a rootstock to graft to from my IKKJ when it didn’t make it here in my zone 6.
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I believe @ampersand is doing well with Chinebuli. Not sure the lowest temps it has survived so far.
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I’m now zone zone 7a (one thing climate change is good for, I guess). Lowest temp I recall since I planted is -2 or -3 F. But temperature isn’t the whole story… length of cold, temperature swings, plant dormancy level, wind exposure, etc etc.
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Yep, that’s right. Usually we think of the lower limit as pertaining to the best conditions. Like, IKKJ may survive -5 F if the winter has been generally cold, that is cold enough to preserve dormancy; but then IKKJ may die at +10 F if the winter has included warm episodes at, say, 50 F.
What we can tell from your experience is that Chinebuli can survive -3 F. That’s great but not exceptional.
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Update:
My south central Kansas location has had 2 years of drought stress, so I will say that some of my losses could be from a combination of drought stress and cold, but some of the trees I had in the 6a category, I would move down a zone to 6b, and I would for sure lean on the side of a half a zone of caution and focus on planting the ones in the 6a list in your 6b location, etc…
Here are suggestions:
For zone 6a, usda2012, your very best options on hybrids are:
Jt-02. -20 to -25F?
JBT-06. -20 to -25F?
Chuchupaka. -16 to -20?
Nb-02. -16 to -22F.
Some of these may work in a very sheltered microclimate of 5b…
A few others may work for a sheltered location in 6a, but i would focus on those above…
And as well they are the best for 6b too, lean on the side of caution if you can, and some others great for 6b if your location is not too exposed, are probably:
Rosseyanka. -18 to -22?
Kasandra. -17?
Sosnovskaya. -12 to -18?
Pamjat Pasenkova. -10 to -16F?
If you have a really sheltered southern 6b (usda2012) location, or established rootstock and less stressful climate than me, like out east in a nice Virginia Valley or something, others on my original list for 6a or 6b may work and my original list may be more perfect for you since others have gotten those results and success… Here in Kansas we have Prairie Windchill, little protection, drought stress, and in short The Wizzard of OZ!
I recommend first planting 90c/or northern sourced American Rootstock, grow them out 2 or 3 years, at least 1/3" thick seedlings, hopefully 2/3", before trying to graft, then when you spring graft, that established rootstock will supply energy for fast growth before winter. In a marginal situation, a thicker limb will take a lot more cold than a small grafted twig. I have had small 6" established grafts freeze off in mild winters, when a well established 3 year old plant took 10 degrees more cold in a polar blast with no damage at all!
Sheltered microclimate means a lot! For instance, one of my Che varieties at our upland prarie homestead all three established grafts totally froze out in a cold blast winter, but 6 miles down the road at my orchard which is a valley will hill and tree protection, that same Che variety recieved no damage at all… Yet variety matters, at the homestead a different Che variety recieved no damage right next to the ones that were killed…
Both locations are in the middle of 6b usda2012.
At my protected valley location, Davids Kandy has recieved lots of damage 2 out of 4 years, and Sovietski I grew a big 5ft potted tree before planting out there, the first winter inground it was killed to just above the graft, but did a lot of regrowth, then the second winter it was killed, yet a similarly established Kasandra and NB-02 has never even had twig damage all of those same winters… So yeah some of it could be from summer drought stress and i would have more confidence in a Virginia 6b than here in kansas, but yes anyway, it is a test, as the Kansas Moto says “To the Stars with difficulty”. And as Trump said, “Never give up, if theres a brick wall go through it…” i just refuse to give up… but for those wanting just a few trees, go with those sure ones, and establish your rootstock first I recommend. Or else just plant tough stuff like the Romance Cherries lol
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