FWIW, see my comments here. IMO, the cold hardiness of many Kaki varieties has been severely exaggerated based on sporadic random results. Chinebuli is a case study.
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Yeah i think you are right. Plus we have those 20 year record blasts… zone 6 should be focused on hardy hybrids like JT-02, Kasandra, Nb-02, Rosseyanka, etc… Inchon and Korea/Steiermark and maybe Miss Kim are the only kaki i feel good about testing in sheltered locations in 2012 6b any more, along with Nikitas Gift hybrid its max is also sheltered parts of 6b. All other kaki should stay 2012 zone 7 or warmer, most of them should be 7b or warmer.
I have lost most kaki and even a lot of hybrids i have tested 2012 zone 6b, even some supposably good hybrids like Davids Kandy have seen severe damage multiple winters even after growing to a sizeable bush, my nice Sovietski hybrid was totally killed at -12F zone 6b 2012. I plan to only grow the most hardy hybrids from now on.
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Corora de rei graft to wild dv seedling developed 3 small shoots last season. Looked good until leaf drop last fall.
Our low back in January was 2-3F.
It did not survive unprotected.
TNHunter
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Hi everyone!
First of all, thank you for all the replies, this post is wonderful.
I’m planting the most resilient and care-free orchard as I can in East Texas zone 8b.
Am I safe to grow the following trees, even in extreme winters (polar blasts, etc)?
Saijo
Fuyugaki (Fuyu)
Jiro
Maekawa Jiro
I checked local weather stations and in the last 25 years the coldest was -0.7F for a night.
Out of these varieties, which one is the most cold hardy? What would you add?
Thank you again,
Pedro
LOL, when does the cold weather start?
If 0 F is the worst you can expect, then you might be OK with all of them. That’s pretty close to the boundary for their survival, provided the trees are not already exiting dormancy. If it’s been warm enough that the trees are not fully dormant, then all bets are off.
FWIW, I’m in Z7A. Average low temp is 0 to -5 F. The lowest I’ve experienced here in 12 years is -7 F, which killed all 1-2 year old wood on my three Ichi Ki Kei Jiros. Even so, I have subsequently planted Saijo, Sheng and Giboshi hoping that I can keep them alive.
In your shoes, I’d probably try those varieties. But “safe” is not the word I’d use. If you want resilient and care-free, you should try cold-hardy hybrids such as Kasandra, JT-02, Dar Sofiefvky, Chuchupaka, even Nikita’s Gift.
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0F should be the worst I can expect. Of course, there is no telling with nature…
I moved here recently so I’m not so sure. I’m planting hardy figs (Celeste, Chicago hardy…), Jujubes (Li, Honey Jar, Sugar Cane…) and then the Asian persimmons (Saijo, Jiro, Maekawa Jiro, Fuyu…) hoping that everything will survive provided it is well mulched with Woodchips.
I sure hope so. I want to read about experiences and yours is helpful. I don’t mind if I have to loose 2 year old wood every 5-10 years, but I don’t want my trees to die down to the graft.
I was hoping to find someone from East Texas, 8b, who could share experiences.
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Figs will be killed to the ground by 0 F. But they rebound fast, and they bear fruit on the current year’s wood. Just cut away all the dead wood and let them do their thing. You’ll have a good crop the same year.
Assuming you have warning of coming cold weather and that the trees aren’t too big, you could throw a tarp over each tree for the duration. You probably could raise the temperature enough underneath the tarp to mitigate damage. Trees that might be severely damaged at 0 F could survive unscathed at +5 F.
Yes, check with neighbors in TX but I think your bigger risk is not absolute low temperatures (e.g., 0 F in January) but rather volatility (e.g., 60 F followed by 20 F in Feb).
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Thanks for your help. Would an american persimmon like Yates take such swings better?
I guess I’m probably not going to get definitive answers, and I’ll just have to grow these Asians (Saijo, Fuyu, Maekawa Jiro, Jiro…) here and test them long term.
I bought them from Starkbros, and I’m not even sure if they are on DV or DL roots…
Pedro
I’m also in 7a and also will be planting figs, jujubes, and persimmons (and pawpaws). One thing I plan to do is to burry the graft union on my figs in hopes that if and when they die, they can be regrown from the graft and not the rootstock.
I won’t worry about the pawpaws or jujubes, but I am worried about the figs and the persimmon. The persimmon I chose was IKKJ, which supposedly comes out of dormancy a little later to help with killing frosts and in theory is hardy to 6.
The figs’ hardinesses are tighter, but this is a persimmon thread 
Virtually all figs for purchase are ungrafted, they root very easily so that won’t be a worry
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Agreed. You can graft figs, but there’s not much point unless you want a multi-variety tree or you think your desired variety would do better on a more vigorous rootstock. If you grow your figs the usual way – on their own roots – you don’t have to worry about them dying to the ground. They will grow back true to type.
I planted 3 IKKJs for the same reason. When young, they suffered severe cold damage to new growth. After 2 years, they suffered little damage until -7 F in Feb 2023. I’d consider -5 F to be a good estimate of the boundary for IKKJ.
That said, the implication is that IKKJ would be killed by the average winter in Z6A, where average lows are -5 to -10 F. IKKJ would be killed by a slightly worse than average winter in Z6B, where average lows are 0 to -5 F. IKKJ would seem OK for Z7A, where the average winter has lows of +5 F to 0 F – but then some winters are much worse than average.
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Yes, American persimmons are much more cold hardy than Asians. They would normally survive -20 F and tolerate volatility.
Also, Asian-American hybrid persimmons are generally more cold hardy than pure Asians. Nikita’s Gift is reported hardy to -5 F. Kasandra, Dar Sofievki, Chuchupaka, JT-02/Mikkusu are all hardy to -15 F or colder. And they taste very good, IMO better than the Americans.
My recommendation would be:
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Grow one non-astringent Asian just to (a) have a non-astringent type, and (b) to see if you can keep it alive. I’d suggest Ichi Ki Kei Jiro for the reasons discussed above. Skip the other non-astringents – Fuyu, Jiro, Maekawa Jiro – which would be very similar.
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Grow 1-2 astringent Asians just because they can be more flavorful. Saijo is a delicious variety but it might be killed at 0 F. So try Saijo plus some other more hardy Asian such as Giboshi, Sheng, Great Wall, which should be OK to -5 F or slightly lower.
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Finally, and most importantly, grow as many cold hardy hybrids as you have room for. You could not go wrong with Kasandra, Dar Sofiyivki, Chuchupaka, and/or JT-02. As noted, all of these will survive -15 F. Nikita’s Gift is reportedly the sweetest hybrid around, though it might be killed by temperatures below 0 F and it drops fruit for a few years before settling down.
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I appreciate your recommendation. I’m a bit shocked, especially reading general comments, that in 8b it seems like non-astringents might not be reliable!
I was hoping for the opposite advice… I think I’m going to stick with Saijo, Maekawa Jiro, Fuyu, and Jiro, and then add a full size american (Yates, for example) to ensure a big crop in case the others fail years down the line. This will be on top of figs and jujubes.
Pedro
OK, good luck. Keep us posted.
Just to clarify, my guidance was not geared toward an average winter in your zone 8B. It was geared toward your goal to be safe and carefree during the worst case scenario, temperatures plunging to ~0 F. That’d be like being teleported for a spell into average Z6 conditions.
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If that ever happens to let’s say, a 10 year old tree, how easy would it be to graft an American variety to the rootstock then?
Pedro
Most persimmons in the eastern U.S. are grafted to 90-chromosome D. Virginiana (American) rootstock. That rootstock would survive your worst winter. So you should be able to graft a desirable American scion to your surviving rootstock. In fact, you should be able to graft any persimmon (American, Asian, hybrid) to that rootstock.
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Thank you! The plan will be then to stick with the Asian non-astringent and try them, and if they don’t work, just order some good hybrids and american scions to graft on the surviving rootstock.
Thanks!
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I planted a Tam Kam in 2011. Over the next ~5 years:
0F: completely fine
-4F: significant damage
-8F to -9F: dead
I lost a couple IKKJ at the same time as the Tam Kam, but they were only a year or two old, so that could have been a factor.
Over the last 7-8 years, we haven’t gotten below -1F or so. At that temp, I haven’t been losing any more persimmons. It probably helps that I’ve been planting a lot at other locations, closer to the shore (1-2 miles vs 5 miles at my house). Some are also near buildings, so even if it does get down to -8F again, there is some hope for them.
This year, I finally started to get a bit of non astringent production. A IKKJ tree (planted in 2021) produced 50-70 fruit. I may need to try thinning it, as such a heavy load could have reduced the size and brix of the fruit.
This pic is from the start of October, but I didn’t start picking them until a few weeks later and finished up around November 1st.
A nearby (about 10 houses down the road) Gwang Yang (a Korean variety) produced relatively few fruit, but they were much higher quality than the overloaded IKKJ. A nearby Chinibuli which produced 2 fruit was also quite good.
I had a 2nd IKKJ which produced larger fruit (similar size to the Gwang Yang). In addition to the lower fruit load, this IKKJ is planted in a dry part of the lawn. It’s hard to get grass to grow there. Maybe the water deficit helped with the brix. I also let them hang a long time- you can see all the leaves have dropped in the pic.
So far, I haven’t found any to be particularly early ripening. Mid-October seems the earliest. But I still have several more NA varieties which haven’t produced yet.
I had both Inchon and Korea. Both were quite productive (especially Korea, I think). But they were also very astringent and the astringency was hard to remove. If I was to suggest an astringent variety, it would be either Miss Kim or Nikita’s Gift. I grafted Miss Kim in 2015, so I think it may have survived one of the -8 to -10F years that we had, as a young graft. Nikita’s Gift was grafted in 2016, so I’m not sure if it got a dose of cold weather or not. The astringency leaves MIss Kim relatively easily compared to other astringent persimmons. While that can’t be said for Nikita’s Gift, it does get a remarkably high brix level (35-40), which give it great flavor if you do manage to get rid of the astringency.
I’ve mostly given up on astringent persimmons as being something I don’t really want to eat. I even removed the Miss Kim tree last year, as it was crowding a couple trees I cared more about, though I did feel a bit bad about removing a productive tree, in the hopes of making other trees productive. I still have the Nikita’s Gift, though it mostly took a year off from production, with just a few fruit. Same for Kassandra. This year Chienting (PVNA, but no male pollen around, so astringent) was pretty productive (see below pic), so I ended up giving most of it away.
Yes, I’ve been grafting to rootstock sprouts from the dead Tam Kam for almost a decade. It supplies me with more than enough trees to plant at other locations. And it keeps sending up more, over roughly a 10’ area.
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Bob –
Good info. It seems that the quotes from me are dated. To update: My 3 IKKJs had a near-death experience at -7 F and -5 F on successive nights in Feb 2023. All 1-2 year old wood was killed. New sprouts popped from older wood after ~6-8 weeks. All three trees have rebounded. But the lesson is that at temps persistently < -5 F, IKKJ is likely dead.
I’m grateful for your info on Tam Kam. I reasoned to the view that all Korean PCNAs originated in Japan so they could not be any more cold hardy that the Japanese names. Your observations tend to confirm that view.
More later, gotta go now. . . .
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