Persimmon Varieties with Male Flowers

General Fruit Growing
21

Thanks, EG is the only one on the list I had, just top worked it yesterday.

22

We already know persimmon exhibits Xenia because of the PVNA trait. There is no “if”.

23

I get that this answer is technically correct but can we distinguish between (1) an effect of pollination per se by any pollen source; and (2) different effects of pollination by different pollen sources.

For example, is the effect of pollination on the color, flavor and astringency of a PVNA the same (#1) whether it is pollinated by a PVNA (e.g., Nishimura Wase) or a PCNA (e.g., Taishu)? Or are these effects enhanced when the PVNA (e.g., Maru) is pollinated by another PVNA?

Similarly, if my Kasandra fruit taste better when pollinated (#1), is it possible that they taste best when pollinated by certain varieties (#2) such as the PVNA Nishimura Wase?

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24

A persimmon tree can do anything wants to as a result of pollination whether it affects seed, fruit, color, flavor, or even how the tree grows as a result of a pollinated fruit vs non-pollinated. What can be stated with 100% accuracy is that we know some traits have very specific affects such that all fruit on a tree have a similar change as a result of pollination regardless of pollen source. I put PVNA in this camp for the simple reason that a pollinated fruit with developing seed always exhibits PVNA phenotype.

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25

My kingdom for a stick of male Gailey this winter that made my Giboshi heavenly at my old farm before it (Gailey) died. My grafts of coffeecake, chocolate have all either failed or died the first winter.

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26

Seems like we’re on the verge of a deep philosophical discussion of free will in plants.

How do we know this? Can you cite some relevant research?

While not about persimmons, this study on date palms seems to show that fruit quality depends on the pollen source. If true in dates, why not persimmons?

https://journals.tubitak.gov.tr/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3107&context=agriculture

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27

Meader will have an occasional seed. No pollinator trees around. It will have very few male flowers. Myself I want seeds so animals will plant the seed. 73 years old and never found a persimmon in the wild. In spite of being a hunter out and about. Waiting on a seedling male tree to mature.

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28

Jerry, stop waiting and just graft a male.
I have two D.v.male selections, Szukis(if i can find it) and Claypool’s F-100.
Also have the Lavergne/England Rosseymale hybrid, and a male seedling of Rosseyanka bred by Jerry Lehman. Both would be essentially 75%D.v./25%D.k
Would be glad to send scions next year.

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29

So after having to look up Xenia definition, yes the pollen does change the fruit on PVNA varieties. But, this seems to be more of a trigger that ANY suitable pollen would make to a PVNA fruit, so the effect would be that any and all pollen would cause the exact same reaction. Its not pollen specific. What we are really looking for is if there is a pollen source specific change vs the general changes any pollen would make on a PVNA fruit??

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30

It is a bit more nuanced. Developing seed cause the PVNA change. Just pollination alone won’t do it. But of course, seed don’t develop until the flower is pollinated! Shrugs!

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31

I’ve not followed these discussions enough to even pretend to understand, but IIRC, years ago, John Brittain, of Nolin River Nut Tree Nursery, was selling ‘Lover Boy’, a grafted 60-chromosome male, ostensibly to pollenize 90-c females, resulting in larger crops, with the seeds aborting(?) or failing to develop…
Is this right, or even a thing?

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32

It very well could be a thing Lucky. I would expect pollination but no seed from a 60 X 90 cross. As previously stated, the odd number of chromosomes would totally disrupt pachytene pairing. One of the side effects of pollination would be more rapid fruit development from the plant hormones released.

In the interesting trivia department, most plants produce germ cells that have 2 sets of chromosomes but the endosperm has 3 sets after fertilization. If a 60 chromosome male crossed with a 90 chromosome female, the chromosome count would be 6 sets from the female and 2 sets from the male in the endosperm. The germ cells would have 3 sets from the female and 2 sets from the male making it pentaploid. While technically the endosperm has paired chromosomes with 8 sets, I would expect some level of failure to develop for the seed.

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33

Yeah, that’s my question. I totally get the PVNA dynamic. I’m asking whether the response to pollination, whether in PVNAs or not, varies with the pollen source. That is, does the source of the pollen affect size, sweetness, flavor, texture, etc.

I realize that this is a “deep in the weeds” question. I’m asking because last year my pollinated Kasandra fruit tasted better than I remember from prior years. And last spring, I had introduced the PVNAs Chocolate and Coffee Cake to the orchard, both of which again this year have male flowers. This year I added Taishu, which also currently has male flowers. All three are in pots, so I can manipulate which variety is closest to my other trees.

I guess this breaks down into two questions each with sub-questions:

  1. For PVNAs:

a. Is the fruit from a PVNA (e.g., Chocolate) pollinated by another PVNA (e.g., Coffee Cake) different than the fruit pollinated by a non-PVNA (e.g., Taishu)?

b. Is the fruit from a PVNA (e.g., Chocolate) pollinated by some PVNA (e.g., Coffee Cake) different than the fruit pollinated by another PVNA (e.g., Maru)?

  1. For Non-PVNAs:

a. Is the fruit from a non-PVNA (e.g., Kasandra, Saijo, Jiro) pollinated by a PVNA (e.g., Coffee Cake) different than the fruit pollinated by a non-PVNA (e.g., Taishu)?

b. If so, are some PVNA’s better than others when pollinating non-PVNAs?

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