That looks great! I’ve been meaning to make some caramel candy at some point, so I’ll be adding this one to my recipe screenshots album.
Here’s a screenshot for those people stumbling upon this thread years from now when it’s long gone:
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A friend recently sent me a great article on Asian persimmons. Within, it says "Production of ethanol and acetaldehyde by the seeds is associated with the loss of astringency in PVNA-type fruits but not in PCNA-type fruits. The seeds of PVNA fruits produce a large amount of ethanol and acetaldehyde during the middle stages of fruit development. . . . "
The article continues to state that ethanol / acetaldehyde production by seeds is (1) greatest in PVNA fruits, (2) limited in PVA fruits, (3) near zero in PCA fruit. Presumably (but not stated) it is also (4) near zero in PCNA fruits, which have mutated to lose the ability to accumulate tannins.
Does anyone know how much ethanol / acetaldehyde is produced by seeds of American persimmons?
Asked differently, does the presence of seeds help American persimmons lose astringency? Or are American fruits most like Asian PCA fruits – “almost no ethanol and acetaldehyde”?
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That’s been my limited experience with CO2. Thanks for corroborating.
Found this while walking on the river front. Almost walked past it since I was looking on the wooded side and up high. Nice to find this one with a full crop and within reach.
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Yep, those are some dandies. Two trees? Maybe three? Certainly at least two differing sizes of fruit.
Where are those trees located? I’m wondering if those large ones (they’re really big) are hybrid?
Intentional planting? Or, a really large American persimmon and another American persimmon with typical fruits.
Very interesting to gain a second look at those really big fruit.
or the rootstock coming up & not even a wild tree . . . and definitely intentionally planted.
That’s probably the case there.
The fruit is small and seedy like the native. Not large but the picture makes them look big. The tree is short for producing so much fruit so maybe a hexaploid (Guess)…
Yes it was planted by someone for sure. This is located in Huntsville Alabama on the Ditto Landing river walk. I will have to go back and collect some seed.
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I’ve been drying Tecumseh persimmons this week in my dehydrator. My kids inhale dried persimmons! I like to dry them when they’re just starting to soften up and still easy to slice with a knife. They’re still too astringent to eat fresh this way, but the drying removes the remaining astringency. When I’ve dried unripe fruit that is still hard, they end up still being too astringent to eat.
sliced and ready to go:
after ~ 36 hours:
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Wow, just Wow 
Which graft did you use?
@ncdabbler – Great looking dried fruit. I’m gonna try it on my Jiros.
Question. Your Tecumseh fruits looks to me like Jiro/Fuyu but that would imply non-astringent. You taste some astringency. So what type of Asian is Tecumseh? What other names are similar? Thx.
@jrd51 - Tecumseh is a pollination constant astringent (PCA) type of Diospyros kaki, thought to be a seedling of Great Wall, another PCA type of similar appearance. Tecumseh’s most distinctive characteristics are late ripening fruit and beautiful red fall foliage.
You’re right that the shape is similar to that of Jiro/Fuyu (pollination constant non-astringent or PCNA types), but PCA kakis come in many different shapes and sizes. Some are more acorn-shaped like Saijo, Hachiya or Giombo. Others are more beefsteak tomato-shaped like Tecumseh, Eureka, Sheng, etc… I wouldn’t be able to distinguish between a PCA and PCNA type solely by shape. Most PCNA types have a similar shape in my experience, but some PCA types have a comparable shape to the typical PCNA shape. Tecumseh is smaller than any of my PCNA types and also has more pronounced lobes.
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thx
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@ncdabbler – I feel like Columbo . . . One more thing! What is your experience with Sheng?
My challenge here (Z6B/7A RI) is to find persimmons that are tasty, cold-hardy, and early-ripening. [As you know, I have the same challenge with figs.]. My IKKJ trees meet those objectives, and I assume that other Jiro/Fuyu/Gosho varieties will taste basically the same. So, I don’t see any reason to try other PCNA Asians. While some seeded varieties would bring different tastes, I want to avoid introducing seeds here to the Americans and Hybrids, so I’m going to avoid the PVA and PVNA varieties. That leaves the PCAs.
To be successful here, any PCA needs to fully ripen – lose its astringency – before weather turns seriously cold. I don’t think Hachiya, Saiyo, Gionbo or similar will succeed. On the other hand, I have to believe that there’re some varieties from China or Korea that will work. Great Wall seems not quite cold hardy enough; Tecumseh seems late. But descriptions of Sheng suggest that it might fit the bill – early ripening and cold enough for Z6.
So what have you observed?
@jrd51, I’ve grown Sheng for 5 or 6 years now. It has flowered and had a few immature fruit on it, but they’ve always dropped when golfball size or smaller. My Sheng tree has been a much slower grower than my other kaki trees and developed some kind of gall at the base of the tree. Here’s my recent post about it with pictures:
I thought it might be a graft incompatibility or maybe some kind of borer, but I don’t see any frass or holes that would suggest that. One respondee to my earlier post suggested that it looks more like crown gall or a fungal issue, and I now think that’s probably right. I’m planning on removing the tree entirely and burning it.
So I can’t recommend Sheng from my own experience, but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t try it in your location based on my single sickly tree in NC. It might be that it wasn’t even really Sheng since at least one other kaki tree I got from the same nursery was mislabeled - (a PCNA Izu that turned out to be a PCA type indistinguishable from my Giombo).
I wouldn’t rule out PVA kakis from your search. My understanding is that they can’t be pollinated by D. virginiana or hybrids, and that’s definitely been my experience growing PVAs in amongst many wild and named D. virginiana trees and hybrids. As long as you avoid kaki cultivars that are known to produce male flowers, you should be able to keep yours seedless. My understanding is that many if not most of those potential pollinators are PVNA types like Chocolate, Maru, etc…
Giboshi/Smith’s Best is one of my earliest kakis and one of my favorites for taste, even though I’ve only ever tasted it unpollinated. It’s never been pollinated by any of my other kakis, including other PVAs.
Miss Kim is also a beautiful and early PVA (I think).
I haven’t been able to figure out from the articles I’ve read if Picudo/Costata is PCA or PVA (I’ve seen conflicting info), and I don’t grow it yet, but you can see by @PharmerDrewee 's photos at the beginning of this thread how productive it’s been for him in PA. Saijo has done well for him too.
I would say those three - Giboshi/Smith’s Best, Miss Kim and Picudo/Costata would be well worth trialing.
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A poster, maybe Ram near Seattle, WA, has said here that Saijo picked with even a little color, will fully turn orange, soften, sweeten, and ripen well inside. Maybe better than if left on the tree.
And why do you assume all of the PCNA will perform the same? I have hopes that an earlier ripening variety like Izu will do better in a short season. Presumably maturing while there is still some heat.
@murky – My assumption is that Saijo (and most other PCAs) would be killed by cold here. That’s why I focused on Sheng. Meanwhile, my approach to IKKJ is just like Ram’s with Saijo except the IKKJ fruits get quite orange by late October / early November. They are edible off the tree, but then (as you wrote) they “turn [more] orange, soften, sweeten, and ripen well inside.” So it’s not obvious to me that I need an earlier PCNA. On the other hand, I have become paranoid about astringency so I want the earliest ripening PCAs (or Americans).
I’m not assuming that all of the PCNA will perform exactly the same, but the genomic analysis makes them seem pretty similar. I’ll let someone else prove that some other PCNA is different enough to be worth growing – and cold hardy enough to survive here…
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I’m south of you, but still the same 6b/7a. I have Saijo, Giombo, 3-Hachiya, 4-Fuyu, Jiro, Wase Fuyu, and one other fuyu type. None have died yet, even when they were twigs. I wouldn’t advise buying bare root though.
@Robert – How far south? From comparing notes re figs, I know that areas of CT/NJ in the same zone can have a growing season 2-4 weeks longer.
Also, how long have you had the trees and what have the crops been like? IKKJ is my only Asian variety and people keep telling me that sooner or later they’ll be killed here. We haven’t had a “normal” winter in 3-4 years.
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Currently it is getting into the 20’s at night here. Many people still have their persimmons hanging on their trees. My trees are all different ages as they were all added over time and only a few are cropping. To me the astringents appear to be the faster growing. Many zone questionable things like figs suffer the most when they are young. They all do better after the first couple years. If your worried about short season, just focus on the earlier ripening varieties.
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