I think most non-astringent varieties die at that point. The one now I’ve grafted that may not is Chinebuli, as Cliff England had it survive lower.
Tam Kam, Izu, IKKJ, and Gwang Yang all die in the -8 to -10F range. Tam Kam was the most hardy, only having minor dieback at -4F, while Izu and IKKJ were killed there (at that point, all 3 were 2-3 years old). I think the Tam Kam was 4 or 5 when it was killed.
Here’s a IKKJ (planted 2019) with half a dozen fruit on it at a rental about a mile from Long Island sound:
Ok thx. My IKKJ have survived since 2015 and gave me 100 fruits apiece last year. They seem loaded this year. If history is any guide, the trees are good down to -5 F maybe -7 F. That’s coastal RI.
It only take one cold winter to kill those borderline cold hardy persimmons. You can ask @tonyOmahaz5.
Hope @Marco will check out @BobVance’s post and decide if he wants to try those persimmons. Bob is in the same zone as yours and Marco. I am at least half a zone colder.
Are you concerned that it won’t be hardy or that it isn’t really a non-astringent?
Edit- I re-read and it sounds like it should be NA, but may not have any special hardiness if it is the same as an already known variety.
I have an outside chance to find out about the astringency as soon as this year- I grafted it in a bunch of places last year and one of them is actually still holding a fruit.
I have gotten some astringent persimmons and am not thrilled with them, hence my continued attempts at NA. The 2 NA persimmon (Jiro) I got last year were very good. Crisp, 17 brix.
Of course, it’s hard to have a set threshold, given that you had a IKKJ survive what killed mine (I think, as it’s been quite a while since that happened). Mine could also have been younger than yours. Your post prompted me to go to my notes and I actually had 2 IKKJ die. One died in 2014, in the first winter after planting. I’m not sure about the other, except it spent that same winter in a pot (likely in the garage), was planted outside and then died in 2015 or 2016 (no notes).
What can we say about Twentieth Century? I cannot find any Japanese references about regarding it. It’s supposed to be a commercial cultivar in Japan according to a paper studying persimmons in Maryland.
@mamuang – Yeah, I get it. In 11 winters at this location, the coldest temp has been around -5 to -7 F. But it can be a little colder further north. That’s why the exact numbers are so critical.
I believe that it its PCNA but I don’t believe that it can be especially hardy. As I understand it, Chinebuli comes from Romania. But Romania has no native persimmons. Any PCNA almost certainly originated in Japan. So in that case, it must be a synonym. Best case, it is a more cold hardy sport of a Japanese PCNA. [The only two other possibilities are (1) it originated from the Korean breeding program, which seems impossible; or (2) it originated from China where there is a group of NAs with different genetics, ditto.]
I find the spontaneous mutation scenario less likely than a scenario in which it is simply Jiro or Fuyu with a different name. I seem to recall reading that the label on an early Chinebuli said “Shiro” or something similar.
Meanwhile, Cliff’s observation of hardiness could be a fluke that we don’t yet (and maybe never will) understand. Like maybe the snowplow buried it during the coldest period.
@jrd51
I agree that living near an ocean probably helps moderate your weather. I don’t have the advantage. I live in a high elevation and near mountains. If anything, it makes the area colder.
Regarding Chinebuli as far as I know England got it from Bulgaria…
After quick search (on this forum) I have found this:
Chinebuli used to be grown in Georgia in the seventies (and the name is indeed georgian). It is nothing other than Jiro. As we know Jiro is an old japanese cultivar and might have been imported to Soviet Union long time ago.
Ouch- I wish I knew that before grafting it 37 times in the last 2 years
I had really been looking for a non-astringent persimmon which could take -10F. Looks like I’ll just need to rely on global warming. It wouldn’t surprise me if we get another -10F in the next few years, but I’m guessing we won’t see any killing lows (-5F and below) after about 5 years from now. When I look back at historic lows from when I was a kid (~40 years ago), I see -18F and plenty of -10 to -15F. Now, only one -10F in the last decade…
Well, at least I know I like the fruit from Jiro from the two I got last year. I just need it to survive. And 37 grafts isn’t actually as many trees as you would think. Most of them were just grafting over 4 trees, with 3 suckers getting the remaining few.
This isn’t Chinebuli (or maybe it is, depending on which variant of Jiro Chinebuli is…), but it is an example of how I’ve been grafting over established trees.
I made 9 grafts on this tree (a sucker where past grafts had failed). Of them, 7 survived. I’ve been gradually eliminating the host tree’s foliage. As of today, I got rid of the last of it, so this pic is composed of just the new grafts (you can see one of the failed ones at the bottom).
I’m a bit surprised, but one of the grafts is still holding onto a fruit:
@murky
Plastics are manufactured with solvents & water based solvents & glycol compounds, which chemically react with & modify the plastic to create new types of plastic.
These chemicals out gas under a vacuum.
The solvents could be chemically reacting with the tannins.
Why not seal in stainless steel, then put under a vacuum, then test for astringency?
Well, I regularly cook sous vide using the same bags, with the added element of higher temperatures, and direct contact with liquids in food I’m going to eat.
If I was going to worry about the effects of plasticizers in the vacuum seal bags, I’d probably start there.
I do generally avoid using plastic in the microwave, but there they get exposed to much higher temperatures.
Plastic or no Plastic, microwaves nuke/radiate every last nutrient and creates new compounds in the process! Save yourself and your family. Discard microwave and tell lie vision immediately!
