Hey everyone, I’m back with more questions (sorry). My husband and I plan to completely change up how we’re doing our grapes this winter, since they keep getting hit so hard with fungus (black rot and phomopsis). Part of that plan is to keep them very open and airy, but no matter how much research and thinking I do, I cannot confidently find answers to my questions. I’m hoping you guys can help me.
Our trellises will be cattle panels lifted about 12” off the ground so that we can put the cordons a little higher. All the pruning videos and articles I find online either have wires at 4 and 6 feet, or a whole different pruning method that I cannot wrap my head around (I think it’s called the geneva curtain).
The cattle panel lifted 12 inches will give us a space that’s roughly 1-5 feet off the ground to train the grapes.
Does the limited growing space mean that I should only have two cordons per vine, one on the left and one on the right? I don’t want one to be too close to the ground.
If I do have two cordons on each side, at what heights should I train them?
What should I do if the fruit-growing spurs outgrow the top of the trellis during the fruiting season (the concords are pushing out some that must be two feet long)?
I only really understand spur pruning, and it seems the easiest to set up, so I keep finding myself wondering: Would it really be so bad if I spur pruned the cane-prune varieties, like Concord? All I can find is that “they might produce less fruit,” but nowhere says why or by how much.
If I do cane prune some, how do I increase air circulation? My understanding is that I’d have twice as many leaves for the same amount of space, unless I kept the cane number down.
Sorry for all the questions, but I’m starting to feel lost and frustrated, and I really don’t want to have to redo the grapes twice!
Look at some pruning diagrams. Showing year by year, step by step progress in the training methods. Cane pruning is more or less just selecting a new cordon from the year prior and having a replacement grow in the current year.
Are you spraying at all? Black rot can infect wet vines in around six hours in ideal conditions.
For #4 there have been studies released for certain varieties of grapes. For example, thomcord will produce about 30% more if cane pruned. (15.1 vs 21.3kg)
For #2, I’ve read about 3 and 5 ft are good heights. I have no experience but I plan to just have one cordon on the left and right.
For #1, in general, the more leaves per area, the less air flow, so maybe having just one cordon on either side would help with fungus. Are you spraying? They do make some biofungicides that don’t seem too scary
Also, don’t say sorry for asking questions. Asking them publicly and receiving answers is how the whole community can learn together. So thank you for asking!
It would seem to me that for maximum air flow you don’t want two levels to the canopy. What I’ve found even in our dry climate is that the lower level doesn’t produce much anyhow.
What I’d want to maximize air flow is a canopy that looks like a T when viewed from the end. Keep the canopy high and wide. Then thin out the canes so that the canopy is also thin. To do this I’d think several wires in the shape of a T or a horizontal cattle panel high enough to walk under with canes and leaves on top and the fruit hanging down under the panel.
Thank you, everyone! I am not spraying, but I will be, at least for the first couple years, once we change things up. What I was able to find about spraying grapes suggests that spraying them now would be pointless, and I should wait until the leaves fall in Autumn. Since I’m going to have to dig up the vines to redo everything, I was going to just cut the canes way back and start spraying them then. Both of my concords (seeded and seedless) are trying to produce some fruit this year, and I really, really want the fruit; do you think spraying them now would benefit them? I found a video where the guy mentions a spray with natural oils (like rosemary) being the active ingredients; I was planning to use that one.
I will definitely plan on reducing the number of canes to one per side. It’s disappointing that I won’t get nearly as much fruit as I thought I could, but if the lower canes don’t produce much anyway, it’ll be worth having less fruit in exchange for healthier vines. 3-5’ sounds like a comfortable height to grow the canes. Maybe I’ll go 4’ to give the spurs room for me to tie up for support against wind, which we have a lot of. Do you think that would benefit them more than the extra foot of height?
Thank you for the reassurance that I’m not being a pest by asking so many questions! I was starting to feel like one, and it’s nice to know that you guys don’t mind. You all are so sweet!
ETA: I forgot to also thank @evilpaul for explaining cane pruning in such a simple way. I think I can manage it now!
I also have one more question for everyone: sometimes pruning guides say to cut back the spurs that are producing grapes to one bunch per spur because the spur cannot feed more than one, however, others don’t even mention it and seem to never cut the spurs back until Autumn pruning. Should I cut back the spurs or not? If so, when more than one new spur comes off the old one (from the 2-3 buds left after Autumn pruning), should I cut each new spur back to one fruitset, or cut out all spurs but one, so that altogether I would get one bunch of grapes per permanent spur?
I wouldn’t stress about the little details too much. Grapes are vigorous and forgiving, especially concord. Follow this video roughly and consider a fungicide if needed. You should be good.
I have no experience, but have read the following biofungicides are “safer than most” and effective at deterring several common grape issues. I’d suggest identifying which problems are currently affecting your grapes (brown rot, black rot, etc) so you can identify which product would be best for you next year:
Neem oil
bacillus thuringiensis
VAM
Regalia
chitosan
kaolin clay
Your local extension can help advise. Rosemary oil will likely not be effective enough
My biggest issues have been identified as black rot and phomopsis, so I already have an idea of what to target, thank goodness. The spray I mentioned has more than rosemary oil; I just couldn’t remember more. I looked it up, and it was Dr. Earth Concentrate Fungicide. It has rosemary oil, peppermint oil, clove and clove oil, and malic acid as main ingredients. It’s supposed to be for both fungus and pests. I don’t want to use kaolin clay because eventually the clay will run out, and either our future selves or our descendants won’t be able to use it. Thank you for the list! It gives me a jumping off point.
Is that to increase air circulation and sunlight? My vines have bunches growing everywhere, so I worry there wouldn’t be enough leaves left if I did that.
I wouldn’t worry about removing too many leaves as grape vines are very vigorous. My grape vine in the span of a month and a half has grown up to six feet in some areas.
All grapevines aren’t that vigorous. And what you need to do is provide a big enough trellis that the vigor is spread out enough to stop growth. That means space out the plants and provide a big enough trellis. Growth crowded up is going to dry slowly. That’s why I suggested a bigger trellis. But I guess that’s not an option.
I can only afford to give 8 feet of horizontal space to each grapevine, due to space and financial limitations. I don’t mind pruning throughout the season to control overgrowth, as long as I know what I’m doing.
After reading this reply, I went back and read your other one. I had completely misunderstood what you were saying. I’m not sure I can do it that way, unless I cut the panels in half (to let me access all the vine) and concreted posts into the ground to hold them steady in our winds. Unfortunately, the whole reason for using cattle panels is to prevent the need to concrete things in, as our soil is heavy clay and rock, and we have physical limitations that make digging that big a hole very difficult.
It’s a cool idea, but as you said, not really an option for me. Thank you for the suggestion; it’s certainly a different way to look at the problem!
I plan to make a trellis without the need for concrete. You can have concrete blocks above the soil with posts mounted to it with a Simpson strong tie
The concrete blocks are held into the ground with rebar. Though I’m not sure if this is an option for you (assume about a .5 inch hole 2 or 3 feet down)
I don’t know for sure if this would work but I plan to make it when my wood dries
That sounds like a great idea! Unfortunately, we cannot use that method (we’ve tried and failed to get rebar into the ground), but I hope it works for you!
Those grapes are pretty! I could get a picture of my current grape trellises, but they’re a bit of a mess at the moment, and we’re going to completely revamp them this winter.
If it helps, this is what we plan to do:
Cut the grapes way back and dig them up. Then take out the trellises.
Build 3’ x 16’ x 8” (or maybe 12”) raised beds and fill with dirt and mulch.
Put three t-posts in each raised bed; one on each end and one in the middle.
Attach a cattle panel, raised 1’ off the ground of the raised bed, to the three t-posts.
Replant the grapes two to a panel.
Kill all weeds surrounding the raised beds and keep them killed.
This should help us to get the grape roots off the wet springtime ground, control weeds, and prevent fungus by de-stressing the vines and keeping weeds away…I hope.
Our current setup is a 16’ cattle panel arbor (we’re taking it out, too) and some cattle panels that are lifted 6” off the ground on three t-posts per panel. My knees won’t let me go up the hill to take a picture today, but if you still want one, I can take it tomorrow.
