Hi all, so I grow dozens of American Persimmon seedlings already, but am looking to add a grafted cultivar. As far as pure American, I have heard Prairie Star is exceptional but I am also intrigued by the potential of the hybrid Nikitas Gift. I have heard great things about NG mostly, but also that it can drop too early. I’m in Rhode Island zone 6.
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Are your seedlings from improved varieties? If so, hopefully there is a female among them and hopefully it should be reasonably good. That would make Prairie Star (H-118 I’m pretty sure) similar.
Nakita is definitely a different size, texture and taste and overall great piece of fruit, so that would be my vote. Unless you are very impatient, since she is definitely a dropper for many years until the tree is fairly mature. Some people seem to get lucky and have it hold a good crop as a younger tree, but that is the exception.
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A lot of my seedlings are from Early Golden, plus some from Donald Comptons orchards, and a lot of Prok x Szuki cross, which is known to produce a higher percentage of females. I’m sure they will still be great, just have heard some amazing things about Prairie Star and Nikitas Gift. I’m also going to graft over some of the male trees once I have found the best females I have.
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Have you found NG to be more similar to Asian? and if so, more like Hachiya or Fuyu?
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First I would say I’ve found people seem to definitely differ in taste evaluations of persimmons and personal preference plays into it a lot. For instance, I like Prairie Star and some might say it is their favorite, but I like 100-46 (Lehman’s Delight) a little bit better. I would also say most of the improved persimmons are fairly similar to me with some being a little more brown sugar/rum flavor and some more caramel. So you definitely need to taste them for your self and you could very well have a different take than I do.
With that said, I would say all of the hybrids I’ve tasted are mostly Asian in flavor to me. Rosseyanka is probably the main one I’ve had that I can taste a bit of the American flavor, but really even then it is just a more intense/sweet flavor to me and I don’t get a lot of the brown sugar or caramel flavors I notice in the Americans. Sometimes I get a bit of cinnamon flavor at the end of the taste of some of the better hybrids. In general I would say I find the hybrids to be denser (not as soft/watery) when ripe compared to any of the Asian varieties, which to me is a deifnite plus, and overall sweeter and richer if well ripened.
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I know your in zone 6 and the reason i bring this up is because nakitas gift is not truly hardy in zone 6a. Prarie Star is very hardy in zone 6a and lower. NG is a delicious large persimmon and i find the 2 taste similar. NG is slightly larger. If you are in zone 6b this wont help much but it may help someone. I would be looking in the direction of 100-46 , JT-02 , Kuji Naja, Dar Sofiyivky etc. Once you have Prarie Star established. 100-46 was mentioned which is very good advice.
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A hybrid that you might consider… Journey.
I have a Journey hybrid that just finished growing season 2. Hope I get some fruit from it next year.
In the post below growing fruit member snowflake speaks to its cold hardiness.
It is also very early to ripen. Per Cliff at Englands Orchard it is the first persimmon to ripen in his orchard (in August). It may start ripening in July for me… I am in zone 7b southern middle TN.
Journey is a very pretty persimmon… for me it has a red tint to the leaves and the leaves seem to be longer and more narrow than most.
I got my Journey scion from Cliff at Englands.
Good luck !!
TNHunter
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Where in Rhode Island? I’m in Bristol.
My 2 cents, which repeats some of what is said above:
Americans are sufficiently cold hardy to survive Z6 winters with ease. I grow H-63A, Dollywood, Barbra’s Blush, H-118, and Morris Burton. I think they all taste good, but managing the astringency is difficult. The fruit must be super-ripe to be free of astringency, at which point they are gooey soft. When ripe, they often fall to the ground, which can make an unappetizing mess. Finally, the flavor can be strong, which some people prefer but others find too much.
Asians are generally not sufficiently cold hardy to survive Z6 winters. I’ve managed to keep Ichi Ki Kei Jiro alive in the ground here, barely, for 10 years. But I grow all my other Asians in pots. And none of them will survive -10 F.
Hybrids are a wonderful compromise. Nikita’s Gift, as noted above, is not materially more cold hardy than the Asians. But Kasandra and JT-02 are reportedly hardy to < -17 F; they both survive here with little or no damage. Reportedly, Dar Sofivieki, Chuchupaka, and many others are similar. Moreover, the taste is (IMO) superior to both Americans and Asians – sweet, caramel.
My strong recommendation is to grow a cold-hardy hybrid. Or, more than one.
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My yr 3 Kasandra produced 30+ fruit this year…first fruits.
Absolutely Delicious !!!
For me most of them tree ripened… the last 2 I had to counter ripen.
Up in zone 6… you may have to counter ripen most of them.
Journey might tree ripen for you.
On nuttrees.net Cliff says Kasandra suffered no freez damage at -16F in his orchard.
TNHunter
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I’m in Scituate. Still waiting on first fruit from my own seedlings. I’m hoping this coming year will be first flower but we’ll see. The largest trees are 10-12 ft. tall, planted 5-6 years ago. My plan was to stick with just Americans, but all the hype around NG got me excited haha. We’ll see!
Good to know. I’m after the brown sugar/caramel notes, so I guess I’ll stick with my Americans for the most part. This year should reveal who’s who for many of the trees, as far as male/female ratio.
Good info, thanks! I have some mellow microclimates that might offer some protection for NG, but I think I’m better off just sticking with natives.
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I hadn’t hear of Journey before, worth looking into. Thanks! That is beautiful! A lot of my seedlings have that same coppery red new growth. A few turn bright yellow in fall, and a few turn wine-red which is gorgeous.
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Well, it makes no sense to grow a tree that will be killed by routine cold. But you could still get awesome sugar/caramel flavors from Kasandra or many other cold-hardy hybrids.
If you have a bunch of 10’ seedlings, I’d suggest acquiring scions of Kasandra, JT-02, Chuchupaka, Dar Sofiyievki, and maybe others, then grafting those scions to your seedling trees. You should be able to ripen fruit the following year. At least that’s my experience.
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If you saw the posts showing when Nakita’s Gift finally ripened for people here, you’d question trying to go to a latitude north of New York City and trying to get complete fruit.
I recommend you get Prairie Star (early season) or H-63A. Then graft or get Barbara’s Blush (mid season) for a different flavor profile. People mentioned you could also graft Lehman’s Delight 100-46 (mid-late), but I’m not sure it would finish fruit for a proportion of cooler fall years. A very early ripening graft could also be Prairie Sun A-33, for another somewhat varied flavor. Journey (very early) has been mentioned as a part-hybrid, but it’s too new to us to have reviews yet (though usually a hybrid release is a favorite chosen from many candidate seedlings).
Here is someone harvesting in Zone 6 Missouri on Oct 01:
But that is 3805 F growing degree days.
Providence RI only has 2850 F growing degree days by mid October.
So it’s hard to get a late ripening persimmon to complete fruit up there.
Here I posted some notes for growing persimmons in zone 4b, for an area with only 10% fewer growing degree units than you:
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What is your zone really? In the northeast winter lows have seemingly moderated a great deal as in my Z6 lows used to routinely reach -15F, now it seems it may never reach -10 again even on a test winter- in the '90’s when I first tried growing Kaki persimmons we had a winter where it got down below -20 on two different nights… and not consecutively.
4 or 5 years ago I planted a Great Wall persimmon against a stone wall facing SE and last winter the low temp was -7 F and even parts of the tree above the wall didn’t get burned. It gave me its first good crop this year even though fall temps dropped off more suddenly than some other recent ones. Only one of the fruit was about ready to eat, the others needed counter time but were very sweet and non-astringent while still firm. David’s Candy didn’t ripen enough to achieve quality, although last season it gave me a very good crop. .
CHAT suggests your location has experienced a similar long string of relatively mild winters. Keep in mind that the one advantage to being further north is the longer days right up to the fall equinox.
I you want insurance against a test winter low, pile dirt and mulch well above the graft union in mid-fall. Regrowth with be very vigorous should the tree die above that.
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That is why I suggested Journey hybrid…
Per Snowflake it is very cold hardy… and it ripens very early.
I think the absolute best flavor comes from a persimmon that tree ripens when you still have some warm weather.
If they dont tree ripen before you start having frosts… that adds complications… and risk loosing at least some of that peak flavor.
TNHunter
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Well, I know from experience that H-63A and Barbra’s Blush ripen here in Bristol RI in late Sept / early Oct. H-118 should be similar. Dollywood is a week or so later and may not ripen its entire crop.
Scituate RI is colder in the winter, legitimate Z6A, but the summer temperatures are higher than here on the coast. I’m confident that Rory will be able to ripen the earlier-ripening American persimmons with no problem.
As for Asians, my Saijo mostly ripen on the tree through I finish ~1/3 of the crop indoors. Sheng turned bright orange on the tree but finished indoors. Non-astringents such as IKKJ and Izu turned orange – and a few ripened on the tree – but most finished indoors. Same for Giboshi. A friend in North Smithfield (much closer to Scituate) gets PCNA Kakis deep orange and finishes them inside.
My hybrids Kasandra and JT-02 ripened 10-20% of the crop on the tree but finished indoors.
Bottom line: Early-ripening Americans will finish on the tree. Early/mid-season Kakis and hybrids will start to ripen on the tree but finish inside. But right, a late-ripening persimmon will not finish here.
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We did have some talk in another thread of persimmon seemingly ripening earlier further north than south for many people. It may be that persimmon does not neatly follow the gdd but instead stalls above certain temps.
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H63A first fruits ripened Aug 18 for me in southern TN.
Anyone up north get ripe H63A before that ?
TNHunter
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