Gee, beats me. It is whatever Century Farm Orchards was selling a few years ago. It does fruit in clusters.
@Gevy I’d me interested in what other bittersweet types you have. Gilpin is another one I have hopes for, I have a couple trees of it. It is also super late like Yates and should do well in the south.
Ok it should be the cluster variety then. Glad to hear something positive about it. Has Gilpin fruited for you yet? I just grafted that and Benoni to plant here in northern Arizona.
I only got a couple fruits and I picked them too early. It is a super-late apple, I am going to let them hang til the hard frost. The problem I have been having recently is the deer, the trees are not that tall and for the last couple years the deer took the whole crop. This year there will be some above the deer so as long as I can keep the squirrels and coons away I hope to have a taste.
Is Gilpin classified as a bittersweet? I haven’t seen a very enthusiastic description of the fruit, so I wasn’t heavily considering it before now. Very late wouldn’t be a problem here for sure, and is actually preferred for me. In the way of bittersweets I don’t really have anything other than Yates. I have a few interesting varieties (Winter Jon, Parmer, Durham, etc.) but nothing else in that category. I guess the deer getting your crop is pretty disappointing, I planted all standards and just a couple of years ago so I have a while to wait to see how things do.
Cummins have a description, it says good for cider and bittersweet. Some people don’t say much, but after storage it is better. We’'ll see, I grafted from Scott’s tree this year. I tried Parmer that that deer or rabbit got- will try again if Big Horse still has it. How is Winter Jon growing? I had that to look at.
A virginia cider orchard friend says Gilpin is the cleanest apple in her orchard. An apple blogger called “Adams Apples” says he can’t see what Gilpin would add to cider, after tasting one.
150 years ago Gilpin was known as Carthouse and grown extensively here on Eastern Shore of MD. I’ve never grown or tasted it.
I looked at that apple blog entry just now… it is dated October 18th, he is eating his Gilpin when it should be hanging on the tree for another month, and after that it needs a couple months of storage minimum.
In general there are many sour opinions of late apples out there which are more to do with people not understanding what a late winter apple is. I’m going to try to make sure I can keep some Gilpins hanging late this year so I can see how it tastes next February.
PS here is Downing’s description… note he states Feb is the earliest they should be eaten:
GlLPIN.
Carthouse. Small Romanite. Gray Romanite.
Roman Knight. Romanite of the West. Little Romanite.A handsome cider fruit, from Virginia, which is also a good table fruit from February to May. A very hardy, vigorous, and fruitful tree.
Fruit of medium size, roundish oblong. Skin very smooth and handsome, richly streaked with deep red and yellow. Stalk short, deeply inserted. Calyx in a round, rather deep basin. Flesh yellow, firm, juicy and rich, becoming tender and sprightly in the spring. Good.
Do you suppose they used to wait til deep winter to press certain cider apples, like Gilpin/Carthouse?
There is some information in the old books on this… Here for example is a quote I just found in Coxe:
All cider apples should ripen as late as the first of November, and not later, to prevent the expense of housing–if it be necessary to house them, it will be of great importance that they possess the property of keeping without rotting.
So it sounds like the ideal cider apple was not too late because they would then need to be stored in a cellar and not outside. Note that “housing” here means in a cellar, if the apples ripen earlier they can be left outside to age. My impression is that is the main tradition of cider, let the apples sit outside and spare the hassle/expense of cellaring. … Here is a Coxe quote confirming that:
Apples which fall fully ripe, make better cider than those which are shaken–they should all be kept till perfectly mellow: the strength and flavour of cider are increased, by keeping the fruit under cover before it is ground
The keeping under cover here means pile up on the ground and put a tarp over them. They need to be kept that way until fully ripe. In general cider apples always need to be kept stored until completely ripe (perhaps a bit over-ripe by hand-eating standards) or the cider will be inferior. For a really late apple like Gilpin it is more difficult to work with frozen apples with snow on them etc so that is why they would be cellared. Note that Gilpin is famed for its ability to keep without rotting and that makes it good for a late cider apple. It was also more known in Virginia for cider than in New Jersey where Coxe is. In the warmer parts of Virginia it might be able to be ripened outside since it is not so snowy/cold.
Very interesting Scott. When I looked at Proceedings of the Peninsula Horticultural Society (Eastern Shore MD), Carthouse/Romanite (aka Gilpin) showed up again and again in orchards here of the late 1800’s.
Traditionally, any idea what Gilpin would be blended with? Love someday to taste a Harrison/Campfield blend. I grafted Campfield at a friend’s big cider orchard here two weeks ago who already has Harrison. So we wait.
Do you have Harrison? It’s so upright, trying to keep those crotch angles less severe is going to be a pain. I’m hoping I’ll have some blossoms and fruit this year.
A friend grows Harrison at my recommendation. I hear it’s a beast of a grower.
My main problem with Harrison has been the trees dying. It looks like I lost another one over the winter. They are on MM111 and none of the trees around are dying. The one that just died was upright but the other mature one has spread out well.
There isn’t much written about blending and there is even less about Gilpin… at least that I have found. One thing I noticed in looking over Coxe for the above is he mentions that commercial producers don’t often blend due to the difficulty of the non-overlapping ripening, but he recommends it for home cider makers. So, blending might not have been very common in Coxe’s time for commercial ciders.
OK, I sense contradictions to my preconceived notions of antique cider-making. In my previously self-consistent and unchallenged view, the object was strong cider, meaning dry. I always thought it had to ferment in unheated sheds while the weather outdoors was “warm enough.” Then it would “keep” through cold weather until consumed. Once dry enough, bad bacteria such as E. coli were inhibited.
The risks of fermentation failures such as becoming “ropey” and acquiring off flavors were reduced by quick fermentation. As the prevailing weather cooled, the progress toward vinegar was delayed by cold storage. Freeze distillation of apple jack was encouraged at the risk of concentrating the wrong kinds of alcohols.
Fermentation would not be possible if cider were pressed too late in the season. Under unheated storage it would freeze solid before fermenting.
I am pretty sure that fermentation was often done in un-heated but sealed cellars. Here is yet another quote from Coxe confirming this (I am giving a longer quote just because it has other interesting tidbits in it):
The time which will elapse before the vinous fermentation commences, is very uncertain in warm weather, and in cider made from weak or immature fruit, it commences in a few hours but if the fruit is ripe, and the weather cold, it will be delayed for a week, and sometimes for a month : the fermentation of the exquisite crab cider, blended with the Harrison and Winesap, of which I have in another place made mention, was never farther apparent, than in the swelling of the liquor out of the bung-hole, without any sensible effervescence and even that did not take place till near the Spring, although the cider was in a tight cellar, secured by glazed windows. In general, the fermentation is delayed in proportion to the clearness and strength of the cider.
In reading further, Coxe also mentions fermentations done outside or in sheds. So I think all three methods were used back then depending on the season.
That would be about 50°F to 60°F and explains the Old Timers’ success, but I have trouble picturing it. The cellars I’ve seen the Midwest were very shallow with little headroom. I can’t see a rack of 50gal barrels in the middle of the floor like in the movies. On the other hand, I’ve been surprised at how cozy a barn full of hay, cattle, and cattle manure can be, so perhaps there is where cider was made.
Crab, Harrison and Winesap blend. Interesting. Also occurs to me that long ago a family might need to make cider in installments all winter due to limited barrels or limited protected storage space.
The commercial operations had such racks and I bet they had some large cellars for them. I think the farmhouse cider was just fermented/stored in whatever spaces the farm had, and the total amount was probably more like 50 gallons. 50 gallons is a gallon a week for a family. So it would fit OK in a small cellar.
I should pull out my cider books, I haven’t read about this stuff in quite a few years and I am rusty.
Shoot! 25 gal hardly does for me by myself, but that’s canned juice, not fermented.
Scott,
Thanks for the wonderful list; I am curious why you never appeared to try Esopus Spitzenburg. I dont recall you ever mentioning it and apologies if you have and I missed it.
Thanks again