Selecting non-marginal fruit for cool summers and mild winters (East SF Bay Area Zone 10a)

General Fruit Growing
#42

Hey californicus! Looks like you’re in San Jose. You get considerable more heat than we do over here in the windy, foggy hills of overlooking the East Bay. I am not an expert, this is just what I’ve gathered from various sources… For fruit to become sweet, there is a need for heat to help it along, and since we are in such a cool spot, some fruit may never be very tasty here. There are microclimates too, and while we get lots of sun, we happen to be in a rather cool spot, even for this area, at the top of a hill, with lots of wind and fog blowing through. Fruit that ripen later in the season (like apples and persimmons) are more likely to get some good heat, as our weather pattern typically gets some real heat in the fall, as you know.

  1. No pluots because my understanding is that they tend to need more heat than plums to be at their best. Maybe that’s wrong? I am afraid my wife and I are very picky about stone fruit because we get a free box of it every week while in season, and it’s just extremely delicious and top-notch quality fruit. I gorged on peaches and pluots last night, they were just to die for. If we are going to grow any stone fruit, it better be good! So I’m trying to set us up for success in this climate. That all said, who knows, maybe pluots would do well here! It’s all just a guess really, just trying to maximize odds; I’m admittedly pretty limited since I lack in experience.

  2. Will check out Josephine! Thank you!

  3. Only reason for Black Knight is because I’ve tasted it and I’ve liked it. The name I chose for this forum (maracuja) is passionfruit in portuguese, and it tells you something about my love for the fruit. I’m from Brazil, and so I grew up drinking the fresh juice and eating the fresh pulp and making it into sweets. I know that I do not like all passionfruit varieties, and none of the ones that grow here are the same as the one I grew up loving. I’m hesitant to go with something I’ve never tried. Black Knight tastes good to me, I know it grows successfully near here, and I know where to get cuttings! I do love the idea of having one that does well with only 3-4 hours of morning sun. I will definitely check out Frederick!

  4. Interesting to know that Chocolate is a shy setter. I’ve heard it is an ideal pollinator, which is why I chose it. We hope to graft other varieties and thought it would make a good base for that. Do you also find that it doesn’t bloom very much, or is it just lagging in the fruit-setting?

  5. I didn’t mention the citrus! We already have a little collection of lime, Kaffir lime, Finger lime, kumquat (barely set one fruit–not a good climate for it here). Planning to get a Meyer lemon too. And besides the unmentioned citrus trees, we have a White Sapote, a couple mountain papayas, Brown Turkey fig, and a few Violette de Bordeaux figs that I haven’t mentioned. All but the citruses are very young/small and have not given us any edible fruit. The VDBs have their first ripening now.

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#43

And thank you for your thoughts! :slight_smile:

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#44

I don’t know if pluots require more sun to sweeten up compared to plums, but I’d be surprised if that’s the case. Anyway, I understand your objective - you get great fruits grown in ideal conditions from Central Valley (or close to it) and you want any home grown fruit to be as good or better in your conditions. Of course I’m not in East Bay and as others suggested Golden Gate CRFG chapter can get you the local expert advice. Thinking out loud, I’d guess late season Apricots should do better for you than what you can get from inland growers. Very early season peaches/nectarines (like May ripening) should match the quality too.

Chocolate produces ton of male flowers that makes it an ideal pollinator, but sets only a few fruits.

Very interesting story on passion fruits! Fruits (and food in general) evoke a lot of nostalgic memories. That’s why I grow a few varieties of guava in my challenging conditions. In case you like the fruit as well, I recommend yellow lemon guava.

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#45

Never heard of yellow lemon guava! I grew up eating tropical guava, which I adore. Only to discover the temperate pineapple guava here in California—which I actually prefer now, as the Brazilian guavas are rather seedy in comparison. I find the flavor of the pineapple guava to be more delicate too, in a pleasing way. Can’t wait to someday try lemon guava! Thanks for the tip

We have more room for more trees eventually. I’m intimidated by peach because I keep hearing local reports of diseased and deceased peach trees, but maybe it’s a random pattern. I have heard our spring rain can impact the apricot blooms, which come early. But it might be worth growing for those glorious seasons that work out well! My partner also is hoping to eventually try some low-chill cherries. Personally, I’m a little nuts about apples, and find it hard to resist trying to cram as many apples trees in as we can. There will be some negotiating! :smile:

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#46

Thanks to everyone who helped. Based on feedback, I’ve updated this list.

Varieties added so far:
White Pearmain apple
Goldrush apple
Hoople’s Antique Gold apple
King David apple
Rubinette apple
Hudson’s Golden Gem apple
Burgundy plum (almost went with Mariposa instead)
MBvs fig
Unique pineapple guava (in addition to other 5)
Yellow lemon guava
Josephine raspberry
Baba Red raspberry
Triple Crown blackberry
Seascape strawberry
Frederick passionfruit
Kiwifruit (variety yet to be picked)

Removed:
Anna apple
Dorsett Golden apple
Beauty plum
Thornless Chester blackberry
Carolina raspberry

Still keeping:
Weeping Santa Rosa Plum
Black mulberry bush (Trees of Antiquity)
White Persian mulberry (Trees of Antiquity)
Chocolate persimmon
Saijo persimmon
Izu persimmon
Desert King fig
Violette de Bourdeaux fig
Pineapple guava (5 varieties)
Reed avocado
Bacon avocado
Black Knight passion fruit
Golden muscat grapes
Quinault strawberry
Taye berry
Fall Gold raspberry

And based on your encouragement, I’m feeling like we’ll possibly venture out into more stone fruit too in future years. Peaches, apricots, pluots, and cherries all seem like possibilities. Thank you for expanding our horizons! :slight_smile:

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#47

This is gonna be a beautiful and productive orchard!

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#48

Hi there, would you happen to have extra MBVS scions to share or for sale by any chance?

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#49

I am sorry but I no longer grow MBvs. A few years back, I got rid of all most all of my fig collection because I picked my absolute favroites for my microclimate, plus I only live on a 1/12 of an acre and a passion for many other edible plants. The only two fig varieties I still have are Unknown Pastiliere and Strawberry Verte, which I could share scionwood this time of year, if you are in California.

If there aren’t any other members here at growingfruit.org that have MBvs to trade, maybe check over at figaholics.com cuttings page. Harvey usually sells it there, along with a hundred other varieties in mid to late January every year.

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#50

Those two fig varieties you still grow are on our short list. While we were thinking of them for next year, I think we’re going to swap and try them this year.
We are in the Bay Area. We use different online payment options, just let me know what works best for you :slight_smile:
This is so exciting!!

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#51

I will send you a PM to set up a trade.Thank you

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#52

How’s it going so far? I’d love an update. In future years I am hoping to plant some of the same trees as you are…

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#53

An update to this thread!

First, thank you SO much to everyone for the precious input. Our garden will certainly be more fruitful and of tastier stock as a direct result of the input from folks on this forum. You are very much appreciated!

Special thanks to HanburyHouse for sending fig scions and refusing compensation :heart: We will do our best to pay it forward. It’s been a rough, cold spring for us, but it looks like one of each is taking! :crossed_fingers:t3:

Also, special thanks to the person who messaged my wife from his hospital bed(!!) to say he’d be more than happy to share scions upon recovery. Humbled by your generous spirit.

We have planted a portion, planned for more. We realized we could fit more trees than anticipated too, so our list has expanded considerably. Those in parentheses are still not acquired, so not too late to change!

You’ll notice a shortage of stone fruit. I’m still skeptical about peaches, considering all the issues with disease people around here report. Plums seem to do great here tho, so we put in a couple of those, but not too many, as we get our fill of such good plums and pluots all summer from Frog Hollow Farms. We are saving room for a couple low-chill cherry trees (still waiting to get better reports on those).

APPLE
Goldrush
White Pearmain
Hoople’s Antique Gold
(King David)
(Hudson’s Golden Gem)
(Rubinette)

PERSIMMON
Izu
Saijo
Chocolate
(Honan Red)
(Maru)
(Nishimura Wase aka Coffeecake)

MULBERRY
Black mulberry bush (Trees of Antiquity)
Persian White (Trees of Antiquity)
(2 more varieties TBD to be trimmed to 6-8ft)

AVOCADO
(Bacon)
(Reed)
(Lamb Hass)
[Note: starting again, as we think the potted Bacon and Reed we got are sick]

FEIJOA
Nazemetz
Moore
Eldenvale Improved Coolidge
[room for more; tall/upright growth especially good]

FIG
Desert King
Violette de Bordeaux
Strawberry Verte - rooting
Unknown Pastiliere - rooting
MBvs - rooting
(White Marseilles)
(Figo Preto or similar for our extra-warm sunny deck)

PLUM
Weeping Santa Rosa
Inca

CITRUS (all potted)
Lime
Kaffir lime
Finger lime
(Buddha’s Hand and/or Yuzu)

BERRIES
Fall Gold raspberry
Caroline red raspberry
Tayeberry
Boysenberry
Marionberry
Olallie blackberry
Triple Crown blackberry
(Baba red raspberry)
(Anne yellow raspberry)

GRAPE
Golden Muscat

HARDY KIWI
Generic male
Ken’s Red
Dumbarton Oaks
Chiang Bai Mountain
[Rossana and Ananasnaya died]

PASSIONFRUIT
Black Knight
(2nd variety)

OTHER (still figuring it out)
Crandall’s black currants
(Strawberries)
(Red currants)
(Pink or white currants)
(Black currants)
(Container blueberries?)
(Elderberry?)
(Goji berries?)
(Pitanga aka Surinam cherry?)
(Hawthorn for medicinal berries?)

Any input more than welcome! :slight_smile: Thanks again, lovely people!

I will try to keep this updated so folks can know how these varieties do in our zone 10a East Bay hills (California’s SF Bay Area).

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#54

Thanks for the update – I will look forward to hearing more about your progress as I am in the same zone you are. I just planted a Meiwa Kumquat that I’m really excited about after tasting one from someone else’s garden.

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#55

I’m in the same zone as you. I planted low-chill cherries in January 2020. I’m encouraged by the results so far. Minnie Royal, Royal Lee, and Lapins all bloomed and set fruit this year. The fruit dropped before reaching maturity, but I’m guessing they may do better next year. The vegetative growth looks very healthy.

I was unable to get a Royal Crimson at the same time I planted those trees last year, as they were out of stock. I planted a Craig’s Crimson instead, which probably requires too many chill hours for this area. I bought a Royal Crimson this year to grow in a pot strictly for scion wood to top work the Craig’s Crimson, as I have no space left in the ground to plant it.

I also decided recently to plant table grapes and did quite a bit of research on varieties that are supposed to grow and produce well in this climate. The varieties I ended up buying were Thomcord, Vanessa, Delight, Red Suffolk, and Jupiter. Most of them I bought as cuttings. Interestingly, every one of the 5 Vanessa cuttings already has flower buds, even though I don’t think they’re fully rooted yet.

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#56

Wonderful orchard taking shape! Not a suggestion as I don’t have personal experience, but just to add to your research - White Sapotes. I hear from a CRFG member that they produce well in foggy East Bay. I tried the fruit for the first time last year, I really liked it but my wife liked it even more. I am experimenting with them here in South Bay this year.

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#57

I’ll be very interested to hear how your cherries do! We took out a young Craig’s Crimson that came with the house. It produced a few cherries that were absolutely delicious, tho we couldn’t justify the space for such little output. Like you said, I suspect it needs a little more chill than we typically get. The new varieties sound promising, and I look forward to hearing how they taste for you!

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#58

Oh and on the grapes—will also be interested to hear how they do. My partner is hoping for a grape similar to the muscat she knows from France, hence the choice of Golden Muscat. I heave heard Jupiter is good for this climate. Taking note of the others too!

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#59

White sapote truly sounds amazing: “ like a creamy custard , with hints of peach , pear, lemon, banana , caramel and vanilla.”

If that is even close to accurate—oh my! Seems worthy of space. Will have to find some :sweat_smile:

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#60

I mostly got pears (European), my wife’s description was custard. Again, just half a fruit each :slight_smile: However, too many people say nice things about it, that I want to try!

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#61

I wanted to give an update!

Planted winter 20/21:

  • Hoople’s Antique Golden apple
  • Goldrush apple
  • White Winter Pearmain apple
  • Chocolate persimmon (whip)
  • Saijo persimmon (whip)
  • Izu persimmon
  • “Black mulberry bush,” small potted seedling from Trees of Antiquity (rough leaves, likely not a pure M. Alba)
  • “White Persian” mulberry from Trees of Antiquity
  • Weeping Santa Rosa plum
  • Inca plum
  • Desert King fig
  • Violette de Bordeaux fig x2
  • Moore feijoa
  • Triple Crown thornless blackberry
  • Marion blackberry
  • Olallie blackberry
  • Boysen blackberry
  • Fall Gold yellow raspberry x5
  • Caroline red raspberry
  • Tayeberry
  • Muscat golden grape x3

Notes (as of Jan 2023): Trees likely suffered from underwatering, especially those planted on a hillside (all apples and persimmons). Soil was heaviest (clay) for those planted on hillside too, especially the persimmons. They all struggled to establish, especially the persimmons, but they all made it. We mulched all trees with wood chips as needed, and fennel leaves (chop/drop) many times. We fertilized with organic 5-5-5 once per year. Added fava cover crops to help with the heavy soil. Gradual improvement over time. Persimmons had yellow leaves for over a year, fava seemed to help. Persimmons (mere whips when planted) are finally looking somewhat happy and branching out by 2022; and apple trees started to take off too. Plums thrived, perhaps in part due to being planted at site of former chicken run—rich soil. Frost killed off plum blossoms 2022; summer 2022, we got one single Inca plum fruit: Gorgeous, large, absolutely delicious. Apple trees bloomed very late 2022 (!?), after we figured out that they needed more water (we installed drip, a much better setup, esp. for hills). Trees all grew much bushier in 2022, all looked much happier w/ more water. Hoople’s Antique Golden set a fruit late fall 2022; we pulled it off in winter, very small (inedible). VDB fig (in 30gal containers) was the biggest early success, setting fruit last two years. Lots of fruit in 2022, absolutely delicious. Desert King set a few fruit 2022–very good flavor, less sweet than VDB. White mulberry lightly set fruit 2021 and 2022; all scarfed up by the birds. Fall Gold raspberries very productive first year. All berries except Tayeberries were producing well by second year. Birds left the berries alone. Fall Gold raspberry had surprisingly large crop in early summer (such a sweet, delicate, tasty flavor!), blackberries all came later and were fairly productive. Triple Crown grew like a monster, tho berries were much less sweet/flavorful than all the others. Moore feijoa barely grew, set only a couple fruit, possibly due to underwatering. Golden muscat grapes set some fruit, tho bunches ripened quite unevenly, so we could only pick a few at a time.

Planted winter 21/22:

  • MBVs fig (from scion rooted a year earlier)
  • Unknkown Pastilliere fig (from scion rooted a year earlier)
  • Royal Crimson cherry
  • Royal Lee cherry
  • Pitmaston Pineapple apple
  • Black Limbertwig apple
  • King David apple
  • Hudson Golden Gem apple
  • Hauer Pippin apple
  • Gold Nugget apple
  • Coffeecake persimmon
  • Honan Red persimmon
  • Pakistani mulberry
  • Nazemetz feijoa x2
  • Edenvale Coolidge Improved feijoa
  • Baba red raspberry
  • Black Knight passion fruit x2
  • Banana passion fruit

Everything establishing nicely during first year (2022, with drip, organic homemade 5-5-5, aged horse manure, mulching with wood chips, cover crops). One passionfruit died in a heat wave, likely underwatered. Black Knight passion fruit loaded with green fruit right now (!?). Raccoon damage to feijoas stunted growth (broken branches), nazemetz is best grower (and more upright). Limited fruit. Unknown Past. & MBVs fig set limited fruit, both tasty (we still prefer VDB, which also seems much more precocious). Gophers killed White Genoa fig, Honan Red persimmon, and Royal Crimson cherry, despite careful caging with double layer of chicken wire.

A little too early to really report on fruit production, but wanted to give an update, as it was requested.

Preparing to plant this winter (22/23):

  • Honan red persimmon (replacement)
  • Royal crimson cherry (replacement)
  • Nikitskaya Bordovaya persimmon
  • Hawaii apple
  • William’s Pride apple
  • Silk Hope mulberry
  • Kokuso mulberry

Future plantings:
We have a cutting from a Pakistani mulberry that we successfully rooted (had three, two didn’t make it); will allow it to grow in pot for another year before planting.

We also have a cutting from White Genoa fig (one of three made it). We took cuttings as soon as the gopher ate all the roots, hoping to preserve the variety.

Will keep updating!

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