Selecting rootstocks for espalier

General Fruit Growing
#21

Hi Mike,

@mamuang mentioned you as someone who had a lot of experience with espalier, so I’m really happy to get your perspective on this question. And I have to say, I got a kick out of you charging in with the Heresy Alert!!! sirens wailing.

To respond to the question you posed, maximizing yield is not the driving issue for me, personally. I mean, sure, I would like to be able to grow trees that bear relatively early and relatively well, but as you point out, I’m not growing commercially. @alan makes a valuable point about why maximizing yield from an espalier can be an important consideration for home growers with limited space. In our particular situation, though, I think we do have enough space, in theory, to produce as much fruit as we would want to. (In theory…) So for us it’s less about the square footage per se and more about espalier offering an attractive solution to some specific layout constraints, if that makes sense.

In the bigger picture, Mike, it seems like you’re suggesting that I would do better to put the emphasis on choice of varieties and make the choice of rootstock a secondary concern (important to make a good choice, but not necessarily the best.) This seems to be the drift of the thread as a whole, actually, both in terms of the many different rootstocks that people have recommended (all the way from @Allen’s M27 to your M111) and in terms of the point that people have made about different varieties behaving very differently on the same rootstock. (I know I’m slow, guys, but it does sink in eventually…)

This is sort of what attracted me to MM111, in that it seems to be both dependable and widely available, allowing for a wider choice of varieties. My concern was whether it would be manageable in a six-foot-high espalier. It sounds like your experience shows that it can be, and in growing conditions similar to ours here, though it would require diligent summer pruning, as Alan points out. I can see why the pruning requirements might make it impractical or undesirable for some people, but I don’t think that’s necessarily a deal-breaker for me (though it’s certainly something to keep in mind).

Speaking of things to keep in mind, I wanted to thank @Allen for reporting your experience with Westfield Seek-No-Further. That was one I’ve been looking into, because I’ve heard that it’s a really good apple and one that does particularly well in our area (the Westfield in the name is just a couple of towns over from where we are). But I wasn’t aware of its tip-bearing tendencies. Based on your experience, I’d still like to try growing it - but maybe not in an espalier…

Many thanks,

Jamie

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#22

Never heard Westfield making anyone’s top 10 list. I vetoed it upon sampling the fruit myself. I think what makes it a “seek no further” variety may be more its reliability than taste off the tree- but it’s been years since I tasted it.

Incidentally, if Mike had no trouble bringing 111 to fruit on an espalier, don’t assume he is paying the price of less yield as a consequence of the rootstock once the trees begin to bear. As a free standing tree 111 is usually quite productive once it comes into bearing. Once a tree comes into bearing mode I don’t think there’s much difference in productivity- I’m just surprised Mike got them there that fast.

Mike, do you grow any vegetative types such as Fuji! I have difficulty bringing that one in even as a free standing tree I don’t expect to bear for 6 years.

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#23

@ALAN,
@JinMA

I do admit that I have the luxury of tending my espaliers on a weekly basis and really do aggressively curtail unwanted growth and encourage the growth that is going my way. But because of the inherent nature of an espalier, it is less time consuming than with a traditional growth tree.

However, as to yield… a 5 tiered espalier with the first tier being 20 inches off the ground and with 18 inch spacing between arms will top out at a height of about 7.5 feet (easily with reach of a 5 foot tall person standing on the ground). With just 6 foot lateral arms you get 60 linear feet of fully sun exposed growing branches. Spacing apples at 6- 8 inches means that you will get 90-120 big beautiful apples per tree.

Adding a sixth tier makes it top out at 9 feet off the ground and could easily be reached by that same person standing on a milk box while adding another 12 linear feet and 24 apples. Oh! and the opportunity to graft varieties …

I think the main complaint of the grower would be that he/she has to thin too much. My main problem is that the espalier method makes it a little harder to protect against squirrels and birds as more of the apples are more exposed. But,being so exposed, fungal and bacterial disease issues are reduced (good ventilation - quicker drying after rain), they color up very well ( sun exposure) and any disease outbreak is easier to spot and treat and spraying is a breeze- just like painting a fence with once of those paint spray guns.

In addition an espalier looks so cool :blush: and I never get tired of the ooohs! and aahs! from first timers looking at the trees.

Ok … so its December 17 and my sore muscles have just finished recovering and I have to wait until April… darn!!!

Mike

3 Likes
#24

@JinMA

Jamie,

Pruning takes up alot less time with an espalier. The exposed nature of the espalier makes it easier.

I had been spending more time weeding than pruning. The shredded woodchip mulch I put down 3 years ago had begun to break down and weeding was becoming a huge problem. This past summer I laid down some weed fabric between the rows and added non-shredded larger wood chips onto the ground between the fabric. The photo below shows what I was busy doing this summer ( but before I put down the woodchip/chunks). I was spending more than 2 precious hours each weekend weeding and never catching up.

SEE PHOTO BELOW

ORCHARD 1.jpg1566×2088 1.42 MB

The important thing to keep in mind is that during the first formative years SHAPING IS MORE IMPORTANT than pruning.

As for pruning… LESS is MORE. Get rid of those branches that are absolutely growing in the wrong direction or place. Leave all the others to their own devices. It is always easier to cut off than to add to a tree. And during the early years you want to encourage growth. The more you have the more choices to trim you have.

So… in the first couple of years prune during dormant season to encourage a flush of vegetative growth in the spring so you have more options in the shaping paradigm. Once the tree is pretty much formed you switch to more aggressive summer pruning with the focus of creating fruiting spurs.

Its a great ride!!

SUMMER 2016 PROJECT

Mike

6 Likes
#25

@alan

Alan,

No Fuji The only tree that has not given me any fruit at all is a rescue Gala that I picked up emaciated, dried up and partially uprooted in the pot from HD two years ago for $5.00. All leaves were dried up but the scratch test showed potential life. It just broke my heart to see it. I actually got angry looking at it.

This summer will be third year in the ground for me. I don’t know the rootstock (other than “semi-dwarf”) but it took off like gangbusters once it got water and some good company.

Mike

#26

You mustn’t become so emotionally attached to clones. They don’t really have souls.:wink:

2 Likes
#27

I have gone to using quite a bit of fabric as well to try and cut down the weeding. I am in the process of doing a house remodel and going to try laying the carpet that got ripped out between a few rows of my dwarf apple trees. To try and keep the orchard attractive during the growing season, I am having to fill my 4 gallon backpack sprayer twice. A lot of days after walking around in the heat going thru 8 gallons of spray I was too worn out to do any other orchard chores. Got one of these on my Christmas wish list, we will see if Santa comes thru.

blob.jpg700×700 101 KB

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#28

Thanks for posting this, Mike, it’s enormously helpful, and your enthusiasm for the espalier approach is infectious, for me at any rate. Your trees look like they’re enjoying the playground, too.

I know I’ll be coming back to the guidelines you posted above, but if I can ask a couple of questions that came up on a first look/read… First, it sounds like one of your key tips is not to prune too aggressively/restrictively while the tree is getting established and starting to build its framework - keep and even encourage some growth that you know you’ll probably prune out later, as long as it’s not actively getting in the way of the future framework. I found that very interesting as it was not something I had seen before.

Second, I was curious about the spacing you used between rows (as seen in the picture). I’ve got a spot where I’m trying to figure out whether I’ve got enough room for a second row and would be interested to hear what’s worked for you.

@alan: I was interested to hear your take on Westfield SNF, and I would be intrigued to get a little more detail about what prompted you to give it the veto. To be perfectly honest, I doubt that it would have caught my eye if not for the local connection here, which I appreciate both on the grounds that I find it kind of cool, and on the theory that locally well-adapted antiques from the pre-spray era may be well suited to a no/low spray approach, with appropriately calibrated expectations. That being said, Beach does offer high praise for both the tree, which he describes as “very hardy, remarkably healthy, and long-lived”, and its fruit, which he rates as “very good to best” for fresh eating, which puts it in pretty select company, from what I understand. Burford also gives it a pretty positive review. However, both do drop some hints that may be relevant from your experience. Specifically, Burford notes that it doesn’t keep well (though it’s supposed to be good for drying), while Beach describes it as being particularly tetchy about soil conditions, remarking that it seems to do poorly in parts of New York. From that account, it actually sounds quite possible that it would be a bad choice for you but a good one for me, in spite of the fact that we’re not that far apart geographically or zone-wise. (This stuff may well be familiar to you, but I found it quite interesting.)

Of course, if I do end up growing SNF, it may also turn out to be a yuck for me, too, in which case I will be back to pester everyone for advice about grafting. And you can tell me you told me so…

#29

@JinMa

Jamie,

My rows run North to South and being that I kept them no taller than 6 feet , I spaced these only 6 - 7 feet apart.

If they were taller or if spacing between the tiers was tighter they might have to be a little farther apart to avoid one row shading the other too much. With my configuration I am not having any shading problems.

With limited space you might make the eastern most row taller with more tiers… Just a thought.

Mike

#30

I probably should be more constrained in dissing an apple that I have so little experience with. There are so many to choose from and if I taste something bland with a name at one site I’m likely to disregard in it the future. Still, there’s lots of interest in old fashioned apples now and Westfield hasn’t really caught the attention of the new apple explorers very much so I’ve little incentive to give it another chance.

Full disclosure, the site was a cider orchard I helped manage for a few years and chemical thinners were not being used at the time. The tree was not adequately thinned so my evaluation was approximately meaningless now that I give it more thought.

#31

Thank you to @MES111 and @alan. I found the spacing information very helpful, Mike, particularly since it suggests that we may have a decent amount of room to work with, though our particular site dictates an east-west layout. Not ideal perhaps but should hopefully be workable as the area gets full-day sun.

It was interesting to hear more about your experience with the SNFs, Alan, and I definitely value your perspective. In this case, I think I’ll take it as a reminder of the importance of proper thinning (something I probably need to get drilled into my head on a regular basis at this stage in my education).

Thank you again to everyone who’s sent advice my way. I’m grateful for your willingness to share your experience and expertise. Looking things over, the suggestions seem to have run the gamut everywhere from M27 to M111, with a lot of votes for the semidwarf G’s in between, and with factors such as region, variety, and espalier size and form all coming into play. For me personally, I think the discussion here is going to send me back to looking at different varieties, and paying a little more attention to the information about their different growth and bearing patterns, something I definitely need to get my head around a little more. Of course, as someone pointed out, if I want to do that, I might actually need to plant a tree… Or two…

Thanks again,

Jamie

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#32

This guy did some pretty cool designs for espalier, mostly for fun it seemed not production. He mentions the rootstocks at some point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yi9ENTWZgHw

#33

Thanks for posting this, SanJose, I definitely got a kick out of it. It appears that you can, indeed, get pretty vigorous growth on an espalier using dwarf rootstocks, at least in certain conditions (was that California?) Though considering how many times he says some version of “if it dies, it dies, whatever,” I’m inclined to take his recommendations with a significant chunk of salt…

#34

@JinMA

I take those “if it dies” comments differently. Espaliering is a form of topiary. We can do some pretty drastic manipulation of young growth and pretty drastic hacking off of existing growth without killing the trees. I took his comments as " don’t worry, bee happy" .

Like when I had to convince my 80 year old mother that she could NOT BREAK her computer by pushing the wrong buttons on the keyboard

We tend to worry too much about making mistakes when we shape and prune.

Mike

2 Likes
#35

You know, Mike, this is really a great perspective, and probably pretty much exactly the thing I needed to hear.

#36

@JinMA

James,

I am an attorney by profession ( I practice “HAPPY LAW” - people buying and selling real estate and businesses - no predatory litigation . - :innocent: :smile:

For many of my clients this is their first, biggest and most serious financial decision of their lives.

I find that, usually, within the first ten minutes I have to tell them to just… " HURRY UP AND RELAX!!!". - seems to work both in the office and in the orchard.

Mike

#37

As promised, I am posting here to let anyone interested know that I finished writing up my third year review for my tiny apple espalier project. It is posted at my blog. Looking forward to next season!

7 Likes
#38

Nice pictures! Re: Opalescent- a few years ago I toured the beautiful/historic William Paca house and garden in Annapolis just in time to see the head gardener cutting down all his Opalescent apple espaliers from blight.
Holly- Do you have rabbits or mice there? I don’t see any trunk guards on your trees- I’ve lost several trees that way long ago. Girdled.

#39

@hambone - nice anecdote on Opalescent… clearly I’m not the only one it wasn’t working out for.

I do put guards on for winter; actually you can see some white ones on there in one picture about 2/3 through with my kids in bike helmets when the crocuses were blooming. We have both rabbits and mice, but I was thinking the guards would only be necessary when there is snow cover. Last year I took them off around end of April, and they went back on in December. Did you lose your trees in winter, or do they do that even in other seasons?

#40

Was a while ago- pretty sure it was winter girdling. Now on young trees I use two guards year- round: one a plastic spiral trunk wrap and the other a two foot tall six inch diameter cylinder I make from hardware cloth with quarter inch or so openings. I use the HC guard to hold mulch away from base of trunk to prevent collar rot. Am probably risking borers behind spiral guard in summer but have never had borers in any of my trees in 40 years. Then on older trees I just use the HC guard but then paint the trunks white up to first limbs with latex/joint compound.