I am also in the midwest.
Currently running an experiment growing 12 different varieties of raspberries, 4 honeyberries, blueberries, elderberry and a few apple trees. On year 3 and things are finally starting to produce fruit so I can start to make notes of when things produce and what it tastes like.
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Darren, do you use much b-118 down there? How does it do for you?
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It did not do well here. Way to hot for it. Even with constant watering; there was too much wilting with it. I was reluctant with Bud-10. Which grafts devinely. But I think it is the only Bud rootstock that does well here.
Of course when I find something I like; my nursery stops carrying itā¦.lol
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Iām tempted to buy trees from there because of the prices but I probably shouldnāt because the minimum order would correspond to more than a hundred trees.
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see if someone on here would split a order with you. weve done that in the past.
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Yeah but itās still a whole lot of trees. I can only use one or two dozen trees and looks like they sell in bundles of 25 per type of tree if Iām reading correctly.
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I am here in 40 below Eastern Montana. I am also going with Dolgo seedlings and I have around 25 currently up and growing. (I have a Dolgo tree). I planted a bunch of Early McIntosh seeds 40 years ago and I have selected the seedling I like the best and would like to give away this seedling budded on Dolgo in a year or two. Stick with Dolgo seedlings unless compatability problems arise.
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One thing after a few years of buying dedicated rootstock; you will end up with your own stooling operation. Already have a lot of M111, P.2. Some Bud-10 and G.214. Will be adding G.969 and P.18 to that.
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@JakeC.MN Good afternoon friend!
I would like to report to you a few things that you may find interesting. We sell shade trees here in Omaha, NE. Iām getting into fruit trees now, but Iām still in the early stages of determining best process in how to bud to clonal rootstock and get them in the ground. Background: Spring is insanely busy for us as we are moving trees for customers. I rather enjoy grafting, itās so much fun and there is nothing like playing your favorite podcast with a beer grafting varieties on the bench in spring =). I feel like what is missing at least in my area is disease resistance/scab resistant varieties so that has been my focus.
Concerning dolgo, I would wager you $100 someone in your area has a Dolgo tree somewhere. Trade them something or give a few bucks for some apples. They are pretty easy to grow from seed, germination for us has been 60-70% on average. Very easy to get them going. Now about raising rootstocks from seed: Iām a huge, huge, fan of rootmaker trays. What we found best practice is we like to use the bootstrap farmer 126 cell tray to get the seeds going (real nice with that humidity dome), transfer to the rootmaker trays outside and then grow them until they reach 1.5-2 ft and throw them in the ground in the fall with a donut mulch ring and protection from critters. Alternatively you can throw them into an air propagation bed, which we have done as well.
Another idea for you which I am considering is that one can grow dolgo just to sell as rootstock for grafting practice. If I have time, one of my goals is to start a grafting workshop in my area and use dolgo as āpractice rootstocksā folks can take home. Something to think about!
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Thanks for sharing your thoughts Brian @joyfulroots I appreciated reading them.
I already have about 30 Dolgo seeds, so getting seeds is taken care of. I also have 5 trays of Rootmaker 18s, 2 of which are dedicated to Dolgo and the other 3 will be for some softwood and hardwood propagation Iām messing around with. Iāll have to check out Bootstrap Farmers 126 trays for the future if/when Iām doing larger quantity of rootstock from seed.
Instead of going into the ground with the Dolgo seedlings, I was considering Rootmakers fabric bags that are used with cinder blocks since I am doing this in my residential backyard. But I am not a professional nurseryman and uncertain of the proper use of those fabric bags. Any feedback would be welcome.
And like you, part of the reason for wanting to do Dolgo rootstock is possibly selling the rootstock locally to home/hobby grafting enthusiasts.
Hopefully we can keep in touch through the forum.
Oh! By the way, a few years ago I was introduced to Rootmaker products on a YouTube video that featured a Nebraska nursery, Great Plains Nursery. Is this you?
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It helps if those selling apple trees have extensive knowledge of the issues growers will face.
Customers should be informed of the drawbacks of owning full size trees. I cannot speak for conditions in other parts of the country, but in the SE, maintaining large trees is a bloody nightmare. Due to extensive spraying and pruning for blight, it makes no sense to own a tree that grows more than 12ā tall. There are many whoāve bought M111 trees in large quantities and theyāll simply work a person to death, and theyāre not terribly inclined to stop growing.
Sellers should make an effort to inform customers about the risks of diseases with certain varieties. Cummins does this and I believe 39th Parallel had a spreadsheet with such information as well and I respect the transparency and will now only buy from them or maybe Joyners. There are many sellers who obviously donāt, and Iāve wasted a ton of time fooling with garbage trees that should not be on the market.
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Exactly. Even with dwarfing due to extreme heat; keeping M111 below 12 foot will be a full time job. At best for most causal owners; 14-16 foot is realistic. Love the P.18; but a 20 foot tree is what you will get here. The same with Dolgo that will be a hair taller.
M111 is a great survivor though. Once you get 4 years on them; they tend to toughen up well.
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I feel there will always be a debate about the ācorrectā rootstock, pruning methods, etc.
One of the reasons that Iām growing Dolgo from seed is to get the experience of pruning and keeping apple trees at a manageable size for the average homeowner wanting some apple trees and backyard orchard.
Once I get a feel for what this involves, I will decide if I will continue further and actually sell trees while also providing pruning advice. I have no intention to blindly sell apple trees, not provide proper technical information, and not provide excellent customer service. I am at the very beginning stages of a multiple year process.
That said, it is my understanding that an open center style of pruning with a early and low heading cut along with yearly summer pruning will be the ultimate determining factor in tree size, no matter what rootstock is used.
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Dolgo has a lot of positive attributes. Being manageable with moderate pruning is not one of them. It is in the very vigorous class. And will have lots of vegetative growth apart from it;s huge size.
Do not get me wrong. Our Vystavochnoye on P.18 is exactly that. A beast. More managable would be Borowinka or Delicious seedling. Like 70% size. But Borowinka would have your cold hardiness.
The disadvantages of full-size trees
- It takes about 5-8 years for trees to start spitting out a few fruit.
- By the time things start to rock and roll, the tree becomes hard to manage.
- Most fruit need to be examined closely to determine proper ripeness. This works well when the fruit is 20ā off the ground.
- They are hard to spray
- They will become impossible to inspect
- It will be difficult to remove mummified black rotted fruit.
- Failure to remove black rot fruit can and will likely result in black rot developing in branch crotches. This will wipe out a tree faster than blight.
- Aggressive pruning of large trees will result in excessive sprouting which will result in more fire blight carnage. Apogee is one of the most effective tools against FB in NC. It is a shoot growth suppressant. Hard pruning is not a plan, itās a disaster.
- Fruit that drops will most likely be damaged.
- If there is a fireblight hit, it will take forever to remove the infected material.
- Safety. Iāve been in construction all my life and have done some insanely crazy things on ladders. Iāve climbed the full-size trees with a climberās chainsaw cutting limbs 20ā off the ground while in the tree. Even with my ladder run ballet skills and maniacal tendencies, tending big trees was silly and dangerous. Did I mention the risk of eyeball puncture?
- It makes no sense to own one unless your intent is to create a suitable environment for apple diseases that may affect other in near proximity.
I inherited 5 full size trees, all of which were sawed. The workload was unbearable.
I have two growing that I started at my wifeās behest and have owned numerous M111 trees. I still have a couple that are 18-20- tall.
Concerning pruning methods, apple trees are different depending on variety. Winesaps are central leader growers with limbs that will eventually weep. Staymans will not grow on a central leader or vase shape. A Summer Banana wants to grow vase shaped. Most modern apples are bred for desirable shape which is a central leader w/90 degree branch angles.
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I spread a bunch of Dolgo pomace a couple autumns ago, and seedlings germinated by the hundreds, practically on top of each other. They were left to compete, and now there are scores of decent caliber rootstocks with demonstrated vigor and hardiness. Thereās quite a bit of variation, so itās good to be able to select. Apparently, many Dolgo offspring are apomictic, and identical to the seed parent. The best performer was sequestered for cloning, along with other candidates from different sources.
Growing rootstockās a great way to save money; I can just loosen the soil and pull these in the spring before they break dormancy. Additionally, Dolgo is a phenomenal cultivar in its own right, a classic that persists more than 100 years after its introduction (for good reason). Fairbanks is crawling with Dolgo trees; besides my own fruit, I can collect bushels. Up here, Dolgo is the king of brix, beating all others at 21. Makes terrible cider until itās aged for 5+ years, after which it can be outstanding. The juice is deep ruby red, which mellows to a whiskey hue.
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Make sure to add some smaller items too , thereās a little more repeatability and theyāre less intimidating for people . Thereās a ton of interesting fruiting shrubs that grow well from softwood cuttings, come spring you have some really nice plants at an affordable price.
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I have my eye on some stock plants of honeyberry and serviceberry. Any others you think could be a good option?
Those are the two Iāve been getting asked about the most! Ribes, Rubus, Aronia , Goumi, kiwi and Elderberry have sold well. Grapes and Huckleberries too.
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Where can I reference varieties that arenāt patented/protected by plant breeder rights?