Soil Secrets

Sure fruitnut, but for the first few years you want them to size up, do you not? Its pretty easy to cut back on N when the time comes.

I’ve given up on the random application of expensive stuff for the most part. If it happens to be the one thing you are missing, sure, its great. A lot if it borders on snake oil though.

There is much discussion of soil tests, but I’ve yet to see someone describe a circumstance where the N-P-K ratio was good, but a subtle deficiency in unobtanium was detected that was solved by a judicious application of some $8 a pound something or other.

Clark, of course every soil is different and one must experiment and adapt to their own conditions. I was speaking generally about gardeners and a tendency I’ve often witnessed about them not trusting their native soil at all. This includes the common act of attempting to maintain an extremely high organic matter content.

As far as high levels of N depreciating fruit quality, this is not an open and shut case, and I’ve seen research that indicates little connection to brix and rate of nitrogen application. I believe, however, that this research is done in areas that can control water input. Excess water is the main culprit in creating bland fruit (and excessive vegetative vigor, for that matter) and I suspect combined with excess N the situation could be worse.

Application of quick release N in early spring will not affect the brix, but may affect the size of the fruit.

Olpea mentioned the controversy about mulching fruit trees, and I have often stated the potential of mulch changing the quality of the soil after many years of annual application and breakdown into humus.

After 10 years or so, mulched trees are likely to become excessively vigorous, but it is hard to know if this is because of higher N release or improved water retention. My hunch is that it has more to do with the latter. If you live in an area that seldom gets much rain from mid-summer on you would have little to worry about.

Alan,

I believe they did some research and found on average the home gardener puts down a huge percentage (can’t remember the exact number) more fertilizer than a farmer. People always drive by and see farmers spraying their fields with fertilizers but the rate they apply is minimal compared to the average American subdivision.

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Sean, very true, and a serious problem for us close to the coast. All that excess N from the fertilizers gets washed directly into our ocean, and we can get deadly algae bloom from too much N being flushed into our coastal areas. We have signs all over our coastal cities about thinking what you put in your gardens and down your drains, as it all goes to our beaches and coastal inlets and lagoons.

Patty S.

Alan, we have to mulch here in S. California to retain our soil moisture, or my water bill would be over $1200 every other month. As far as changing my soil constitution, that’s actually what I want :slight_smile: A little more organic material. Just decomposed granite is really just too thin. Try growing fruit trees in gravel, and you’ll get my jist :wink: After 4 or 5 years of mulching, I actually now have earthworms in my soil. Finally. And, not sure I’ll be here after 10 years, so probably not so much a worry for me. Terrible to say, but then, that’s the reality of living in S. California, we never seem to stay put for longer than maybe 5 or 10 years. I think our situation here is maybe different than other places in the country, and even in other places in California, but we simply have to mulch.

Patty S.

Hi Patty,

Good to see you over here!

When I mentioned about soils poorer, as one moves west, I was actually thinking of KS soils, but I suppose the trend would somewhat hold true outside the state. That is, soils west of the Midwest would be poorer as a general trend. At least when I think of CA, I think of beaches and sand :smile: although my impression is that places like the Napa valley are fertile, but I’ve never been there.

Clark,

My leaf analysis actually shows the greatest deficiency in Mn (which is manganese, not magnesium (Mg). That said I totally know where you are coming from w/ a deficiency in magnesium. My leaf analysis shows a slight deficiency in magnesium (and iron as well) which is another reason I opted for the foliar mineral pack vs. just applying manganese sulfate.

Alan,

Please let me know how your foliar sprays work for you. This is the first time I’ve tried a foliar spray. With chelates, my understanding they can burn the foliage easily, so I plan to go light.

Enjoyed some the word pictures you’ve come up with lately, btw.

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Alan,
Even with cantaloupe we have grown great melons up until fall and the ones picked after the heavy rains taste awful. Watermelons split from excess rain and it effects taste as well. In my peaches rain can mean brown rot. For many of my fruit trees fireblight is a concern with rain during the warm months. On our hay fields we use 125# of fertilizer to the acre which is all nitrogen preferably before a snow. We apply cow manure every 7-10 years as needed and test for PK on the hay fields. I have fish ponds that receive water from neighboring properties and I set up limestone rocks for 40 feet x 4 feet deep in the entrance with a box charcoal filter I constructed that is 8 feet long by 4 feet wide filled with charcoal. I used 3 small settling ponds to ensure no excess nitrogen reaches the pond. I had a problem with excess nutrient runoff prior to the water filter I built. That runoff resulted in fish die offs. This year I’m thinking of raking out water plants and using them as mulch around the fruit trees but was concerned they would spike Nitrogen levels.

Thanks Olpea that’s right MG is magnesium. I now wonder if manganese or iron is a problem here so I will check on that. Soil is one of the most complex parts of growing anything from my perspective. Most large farmers here strictly focuses on NPK and use tractors with gps that indicates how much fertilizer to apply on their crops. They never use trace minerals. Their farms are highly profitable but their final crops are not impressive from a nutrient standpoint. Cows sometimes escape their pin and guess who’s farm the cows come to? They walk past their owners hay or feed and come and eat mine. One neighbor began buying all their hay from me with the philosophy that the cows are a good judge of good hay. In the last year 3 separate farms had escape cows they picked up here with the largest heard being 30 cows that escaped.

Wow Clark, 30 escaped cows can eat up a lot of feed.

My neighbor keeps goats and llamas. I’ve seen those goats strip a felled tree of foliage in no time. My neighbor is a super guy, but I’m always a bit worried his goats will make it through the fence into my fruit trees. I don’t fear for the older trees, but I’ve no doubt they could completely clean young trees slick.

Olpea, we have a wide variety of soils here in California, but I understand the general “poorer as you move west”. The Central Valley which extends from Bakersfield all the way up to north of Redding, CA is probably what you’re thinking of with regard to fertile California soils. There are multiple valley watershed systems within the Central Valley. It is arguably one of the most the most fertile places on earth, producing some crazy percentage of the entire world’s agriculture. But, we have all kinds of other soils types here. For example - all along close to the coast in S. California, is a combination of sand and crazy, slippery clay (what all the old 1800’s adobe homes were made from). In the Portuguese Bend area of the Palos Verde peninsula near Los Angeles, the soil layers are angled at the worst possible angle towards the ocean, and layered with this slippery clay. During the very early geological surveying of that area, in the1800’s, the surveyors told speculators and builders never to build there, as anything built on those cliffs would surely slip into the ocean. Speculators ignored the recommendations, and beautiful, expensive homes were built. And, most of them have slipped into the ocean on those layers of clay. A lot of it is fenced off, as it is too dangerous to walk along the beach below. Went there in college as a field trip in my Geology class and have never forgotten the trip or the information.

Along the coastal valleys and up to the coastal foothills, you’ll see the sand and clay transform into DG, which is where I am. We have pockets of sand and clay here and there, but mostly DG. There are some great resources through UC Davis on soils of California:
UC Davis Soil Resource Lab

So, for me, I need to provide more organic materials to help sustain nutrition and moisture. Otherwise for me, it is just like tossing fertilizer on top of gravel, and having it all run down and out.

Patty S.

Yes and I did not count the other neighbors goats Olpea but you did remind me about them. I’ve definitely lost some grass and been inconvenienced at times. I once had rare long horned cows jump every fence between me and them for 3 miles and stop here on my property and stayed here for a month until their owner came and picked them up. I do allow red clover etc. to grow in my fields with brome. Animals of all kinds think i’m doing something right. Rabbits are several times more prolific here than elsewhere in the area. One neighbor simply said the cows smelled the grass and water and could not help themselves. Needless to say I always find a good price on beef.

Goats can strip the bark off any fruit tree. Greece used to be mostly forest- I figure that says something. Goats and orchards do not mix except with very strong fences.

Patty, I made my first money growing plants in the soil of Topanga Canyon where I was raised. The soil I dealt with was broken up sandstone- sand, in other words. My trick was to harvest oak leaf loam and mix it 50-50 with that sand, often creating holes in sandstone with shovel and pick. Then I would mulch the plants with loose alfalfa the feed store at the coast let me have for free. Things grew extremely well with that formula.

I think you may be exagerating the agricultural importance of CA. They grow a lot of our luxury crops (fruits, nuts and vegetables) but the basic staple food of American diets come more from the mid-west- corn and soy for feed, wheat for flour.

I was always told that what is unique about CA ag soil is the top soil is deeper than anywhere else in the world- just not so much in some of the foothills.

Alan, the California Central Valley, on less than 1 percent of the total farmland in the United States, produces 8 percent of the nation’s agricultural output by value: 17 billion in 2002. This is an enormous percentage of agricultural output per acreage. Should have said “the United States” and not the world, however it is one of the world’s most productive agricultural regions (again, per acre). No doubt due to the deep topsoils you mention, due to all the watershed/alluvial plains throughout the valley (which is why the foothills have almost no topsoil, it’s all washed down into the valley).

The California Central Valley grows over 230 different crops. Sure, plenty of fruits and nuts (about 90% of the world’s supply of almonds, in fact), but also tomatoes, grapes, cotton (I know - not edible :relaxed:), carrots (about 85% of all the carrots eaten in the USA),melons, lettuce, broccoli, chard, rice, collard greens, and asparagus to name just a few of those 230 crops. The Central valley yields a third of all the produce grown in the United States. Not exaggerating. One. Third. This is mind boggling to me. As much as the Midwest would like to lay claim to being the “breadbasket” of the USA, it truly is the California Central Valley. And, a significant percentage of the corn grown in the Midwest is sold as seed (for cattle) or for biofuel. Not for (direct) human consumption. I lived surrounded by corn and soybean fields in N. Indiana (literally on 3 sides of our farm) for 10 years. Every single corn field surrounding me was seed corn.

I am still in awe of the California Central Valley. No wonder Steinbeck wrote so much about it. Again, my very memorable and influential Geology class way back in college. I laugh because I probably should have been a geologist and not a nurse, I loved that class so much. And, my professor was incredible. That and organic chemistry (I know, don’t anyone faint over that.) It really should considered one of the Wonders of the World.

Patty S.

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California soils in general aren’t all that great. Even the best valley soils are only good to OK. They lead the nation in soils with hardpan. Used to use dynamite on those now D10 Cats and huge chisel plows. It’s the unmatched climatic advantages of CA that make it an agricultural giant. And it is that especially on a dollar gross per acre basis. Even a decent soil in CA with water can be made highly productive. West Texas has better soils than CA but lacks water and the climate sucks.

The best soils in the country are in the Midwest. The deep loess soils that formed from glacial dust blown off the Mississippi flood plains as the last ice age retreated. Those soils are unmatched for water holding capacity and fertility. There are millions of acres and form the backbone of corn/soybean production. The mainly glacial till soils in that area aren’t bad either. Only 10,000 yrs old compared to a million yrs in CA.

And despite what a few KS residents seem to think there are many great soils on the plains from OK to ND. The limitations there are drought, wind, hail, and freezes.

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Fwiw, our soil in Phoenix is clay and has a average soil pH of 8.4. Confirmed by lab analysis. This idea pH of 6.0 that is claimed to be needed for various plants is for the most part bunk. We grow anything and everything in out high pH clay soil. There are some notable exceptions, strawberries and blueberries dont like it at all. But we grow some fine fruit with very little problems. I think rather than trying to change your soil maybe change your rootstock. We use Rootpac R, Hansen hybrid, and M111 out here with no issues. They can deal with both the heavy soil and the high pH.

Clark…I darned glad you finally showed up. I enjoy your posts. You are a busy body and one who really puts in the time with his hands and mind.
I’ve enjoyed this thread and have nothing to add that hasn’t already been touched on.

As a general thought process on the matter of fertilization I think kokpelli’s post pretty much summed up some of my thoughts toward certain products.

I also agree with H’man about many folks inundating their soils with a plethora of organic material and high N to build a “super soil”. I know this because I’m a recovering nitrogen addict. I’ve done all that and then some, and worse yet I still do it somewhat. I’ve studied a ton on soil building / fertilization etc and think I understand it pretty well too…but I just can’t help it…like I said it’s an addiction, and a very weird one at that.

H’man mentioned the fine balance and he’s right…that’s where it’s at for sure. I do think that sometimes, some folks go too light on fertilization thinking the soil contains everything a tree needs. I’ve seen videos saying exactly that. That’s hogwash.

Clark makes fabulous points about the Mulberries growing to just 3’ after 20 years. You can see that here too on light and deficient mountain ridge soils. That’s more definitive to me than any soil test ever could be. It also highlights H’man’s correctness (imo) of the correlation of fertilization and water availability.

Clark…sounds like you’ve done your homework and besides, nothing can outweigh the general observations of someone knowledgeable who has lived on and witnessed growth in these soils for years.

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i keep it KISS (keep it simple stupid)

add some compost that has worm castings, rock dust (get it for free from rock quarrys), wood ash (again free from people who burn clean wood)

some sweat equity and i enjoy good fruit

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That’s it in a nutshell to me Sam. I like to make part of the challenge in fruit growing to do it as inexpensively as possible. The other side to that coin is that when you aim to do it cheaply you almost without trying end up doing a better job and more environmentally responsible.

If you just start broadcasting nitrate of soda around you wind up overdoing it, wasting money, and sending tons of wasted N into the oceans and rivers as Patty alluded to. I’m not really a fan of the organic insect and fungi controls, but I’m all about organic fertilizing where possible, feasible and sensible.
Except for the human pee and dog scat…I skip that, though for those that are down with it…it’s ok I guess.

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I want to do a soil test because it looks like I have a manganese deficiency, and would like to confirm it.
Most soil tests do not test all I need to know. I would like to know the selenium content, but most soil tests do not include it. Many plants do not need it, but we do! Michigan soils seems to be lacking. Many animals are coming up with problems relating to selenium deficiencies in their diets. Horse and cattle becoming lame and having to be put down. It is a very important element we all need. It also has anti cancer properties. Can be toxic in high doses though.
Since I can’t find a test for it, and we have a known history of it lacking in our soils. Some plants I grow do need it. Nitrogen fixing bacteria need it, so I use Azomite as it does contains selenium in high enough concentrations to be beneficial.

Drew…is there negative consequences to marginally greater availability of selenium? Being a simple and minute trace element, why not apply a small amount and go from there? To be completely honest I never heard of selenium deficiencies in soils until you mentioned in GW.

I’ve always felt like soil tests in highly disturbed and treated soils around homes are a crap shoot at best. Location and depth I would think would play such huge roles as to make them almost useless, not to mention laboratory inaccuracies. I know you grow a lot in pots, so maybe it’s that soil you are referring to.

For farmland and stuff…I get it, and see the absolute usefulness of them. Home sites and particularly suburbs like around your place have been so randomly disturbed to such depth that accompanied by chemical applications and what not, I’m just dubious of the weight one could place on them.

Good to see you Appleseed70 likewise I was wondering how you’d been.