SpiderDove Family Farm

[SpiderDove]

I’m 18 months in Richmond, VA, working with 0.25 acres on a consistent 12° slope from horizontal. My focus thus far has been on soil health, removing established English ivy and poison ivy patches, and obsessively planning a Formally-designed Ultra-high-density Wildlife-integrated Urban Food Forest or FUWUFF, as I abbreviate it. This lofty dream vision combines the rigid structure and deliberate geometry of Jacques Wirtz’s landscapes with the unchecked productivity and self-sustaining ecosystem of the Amazon rainforest.

The intent of this thread is to catalog that odyssey.

The site combines intensive fruit culture, ecological horticulture, native perennial habitat, soil biology, hydrology, climate resilience, and microclimate engineering into a single integrated system. Its objective is not simply to create a conventional orchard, food forest, or ornamental garden, but to develop a highly productive perennial ecosystem that approaches ecological autonomy while retaining deliberate formal structure and intensive horticultural control.

I’m finding a wealth of information already discussed here on several of these topics, so please pardon my ignorance while I catch up on those and thank you for any links I might not have found yet!

I’ll work on taking latest pictures after current rains and introduce each area next.

Regional Context

• USDA climate type is Temperate, Humid Subtropical. Average 46" annual precipitation, spread pretty evenly throughout the year (slightly wetter Mar-Sep).

• Very high fungal and bacterial pest pressures. High insect pest pressure.

• This is zone 7b today, but expected to be 8a by 2040, per climatetoolbox.org. Models using higher emission rates have it as 8b by 2070. Increasingly mild winters is something I’m considering as a chill hours constraint in regard to variety selection and succession plans (see below).

• Projections also show duration of high heat events (days of 100 F) increasing over time, more sharply after 2039. This is another long term pressure I am trying to incorporate in my planning now with strategies including:

  • Thoughtfully placed trees (and fruiting walls) to shade the home, windows, hardscape during peak sun hours.

  • Incorporating C4 photosynthesis (and anisohydric) plants throughout, to convert extreme heat & dry events into exudates, supporting essential microbiology and mitigating rhizosphere stress. Schizachyrium scoparium (little bluestem) is my current c4 planting, specifically a nativar of it: “Twilight Zone”.

  • Actively searching for more radiation management solutions, would love to hear your all’s ideas as well!

• High wind events are the other environmental concern, this is primarily being addressed through the site’s windbreak system. In the future I would like to consider options for neighborhood-level resilience; which the city issues grants for.

So far we have established:

• 35 food trees in the ground (including 3 being grown as multi-stem shrubs), 21 of 35 are espaliered. Only 6 of 35 were planted in year 1 (Spring '25), the rest in year 2 (Spring '26).

• 83 evergreen trees and shrubs forming a multi-layered windbreak around the property with 40% porosity projected at full maturity. 64 of these are (ultra-)columnar nativars. The other 19 are Camellia Sasanqua varieties providing Oct-Dec bloom/nectar support which would otherwise be gapped.

• 400 flowering native herbaceous perennial plugs, planted in geometric drifts to provide continuous bloom and nectar support from March through October.

• 250 native herbaceous perennial groundcover plugs, selectively chosen to complement and correct what is already established.

• 26 perennial berries, mostly a diversity of blueberries and thornless blackberry (trained on perimeter fence). I’m happy to pick and eat them, but also fine if wildlife gets most of these- except the strawberries, those are my fav lol; they are also in towers, right next to the kitchen door which helps.

• 4 songbird houses with 125% occupancy in 2026 (one group of Eastern Bluebirds raised a second brood, observation suggests they may be preparing for a third, but its late so they could just be territorial of that house now.

• ~200 sq ft asparagus patch (split), planted as perennial drifts

• Hardwood log wattles integrated into a conservation landscape
  Pre-ordered for planting in Spring 2027:

• 62 fruit trees (mostly a diversity of apples). 58 of 62 will be either on espalier or incorporated into fruiting walls. As much as I want to do Belgian fences, the maintinence commitment and variation of vigor across selections concerns me, so planning Tall Spindles with 3’ spacing for fruiting walls instead.

Considering chill hours

I’ve spent just enough time thinking about chill hours so far- maybe not enough. Definitely not too much though, lol. The below visualization inlcudes the methodology and predictions I ultimately settled on.

One thing I continue to find frustrating is the uncertainty around reported chill-hour requirements for specific cultivars. Often, it isn’t clear which chill model was used to arrive at the reported number. And when a requirement is simply given as something like “hours below 45°F,” I’m not sure how much confidence to place in that value or how directly it can be compared with results from a more nuanced model like Utah.

I’d be interested to hear how others are resolving that discrepancy when selecting cultivars.

My current approach is to favor varieties whose chill requirements fall within ±0 to -1 Standard Deviation (SD) of the projected mean first, followed by ±0 to +1 SD. Finally, I want to make sure I have a meaningful number of varieties in the ±2 SD range so that the system remains productive even in unusually warm or cold winters.

It’s also worth noting that ±1 SD here corresponds to ±18% of the mean chill accumulation, which indicates winter temperatures are historically pretty volatile here.

Challenges

The root of what I’m trying to do here comes down to these two research questions:

1. Can biological feedback mechanisms be permanently incorporated to keep the system near the desired state, so that human intervention becomes increasingly corrective rather than continuously compensatory?

2. How much biological complexity and crop diversity can be superimposed on a FUWUFF without losing controllability?

Goals

• To produce a diverse abundance of resources to support people, flora, fauna, and soil biology including: fruits, nuts, herbs, vegetables, compost, teas, mulch, nectar, habitat, fresh and dried flowers, fungal foods, beneficial biology (beneficial nematodes, aerobic protozoa, beneficial fungi). High-quality basketry materials would be nice, but is not a strict goal.

• Slow, diffuse, infiltrate, redirect, and spatially distribute air and water flows.

• Develop the soil system as a long-term biological infrastructure. I’ll do a more detailed post dedicated to current and target soil conditions, but overall it’s sandy loam with 3.3% soil organic matter (SOM). The long soil intro will include more on:

  • My intent to “speedrun” ecological succession, with the goal of developing soils around a 100:1 fungal-to-bacterial (F:B) ratio. Including current values

  • Compaction is my limiting factor in many areas but it’s being addressed with a multi-pronged approach between now and spring ‘27+.

• 5-6% SOM, sustainable with cyclical on site inputs only

• 0.23-0.25 g/g water holding capacity in soil

• The desired transition is from continual compensatory intervention toward deliberate state maintenance.

  • Pruning, training, harvesting, propagation, and selective succession management will remain necessary because the formal architecture is itself an intentional human construct being imposed on the system.

• Support native predators to reach a balance with wildlife. Minimize efforts and negative impacts. I’ll go more into this later as well but for now:

  • I disproportionately support insectivorous birds by stocking my feeder with a mixture of mealworms and black soldier fly larvae (BSFL). From October to March I include suet cake as well. We still have a diversity of visitors, but rarely the cardinals and cowbirds which were once dominant. Now mockingbirds and eastern bluebirds living on site are each highly territorial of their areas. Chickadees, flycatchers, and hummingbirds don’t seem to bother them though.

  • We watched an adorable litter of Eastern cottontail bunnies grow up in a pumpkin patch outside our window, but I’ve never seen an adult bunny or significant damage from one. Just lots of hawks, vultures, the occasional eagle (so cool!).

  • Eastern Ratsnakes have been spotted enjoying a rock habitat next to the compost area numerous times. I’ve never seen any mice or other rodents in that area though. We found (and framed lol) a slough next to the hugelkultur bed, so thinking it may live, or just enjoy that area too.

  • Plenty of grey treefrogs, although not in my toad abodes specifically… they are placed throughout what we call “mushroom kingdom” lol, that is the area where gourmet mushrooms are being cultivated on hardwood logs, cookie stacks, mulch beds, and a stump.

  • OK more on this top later, but

    • We seem to have reached an understanding with deer and squirrels (::knocks fervently on wood:: )

    • Loads of jumping spiders (including a couple of rescues who are now loving life in private apartments), stewarding native solitary bees, lots of predatory wasps and flies. Lots of big brown bats and skinks no berry bugs in the lawn or mosquitos in air like some neighbors have complained about. I saw a great horned owl perching on the fence one night too- that was incredible!

    • Herbaceous perennial selections driven by keystone host species and by tracing pest timing to primary predator to bloom shape and nectar timing. Then drove placement, in part, by proximity.

Plant Lists

OK here’s the good stuff:

While striving for a diversity of species the crops selections favor Malus Domestica Apples. Within apples, after disease resilience and chill hours suitability we are aiming to collect

• A diversity of flavor profiles including: Tart and crisp, Spiced, Sweet and honeyed, Balanced sweet-tart, Wine-like, Sweet and fruity, Citrusy, and Nutty/earthy.

• For diversity of uses including: Fresh eating, baking, sauces, pies, drying, pickling, winter and early spring fruits, sweet and hard ciders, small batch craft apple cider vinegars and shrubs.

Beyond apples, some selections are intended to see how far we can push the envelope in this system. They will be replaced as needed if unable to effectively overcome environmental pressures. I err on the side of removing early to avoid introducing unnecessary risk on the entire system.

(p) = Pre-ordered for planting early spring 2027

Almond (Experimental)

• 1x All in one Almond on Mariana 2624 Semi-dwarf Rootstock

Apple

• (p) 2x Burford Redflesh Apple on G.16 Dwarf Rootstock

• (p) 1x Chieftain Apple on G.210 Semi-Dwarf Rootstock

• 1x Cinnamon Spice Apple on MM106 semi-dwarf rootstock

• (p) 2x Claygate Pearmain Apple on G.11 Dwarf Rootstock

• (p) 2x Dabinett Apple on G.214 Dwarf Rootstock

• (p) 2x Dolgo Crabapple on G.16 Dwarf Rootstock

• (p) 4x Edelborsdorfer Apple on G.210 Semi-Dwarf Rootstock

• 3x Enterprise Apple on EMLA 27 Mini-Dwarf Rootstock

• (p) 1x Enterprise Apple on G.214 Dwarf Rootstock

• (p) 1x Fenouillet Gris Apple on G.11 Dwarf Rootstock

• (p) 1x Galarina Apple on G.11 Dwarf Rootstock

• (p) 2x Gilpin Apple on G.210 Semi-Dwarf Rootstock

• (p) 2x Harrison Apple on G.890 Half-Standard Rootstock

• 1x Honeycrisp Apple on Unknown Rootstock

  • Experimental, planted as a reference point in spring 2025

• (p) 1x InitialTM X-6163 Apple on G.890 Half-Standard Rootstock

• (p) 1x Jonalicious Apple on G.890 Half-Standard Rootstock

• (p) 1x Kandil Sinap Apple on G.11 Dwarf Rootstock

• (p) 1x Keepsake Apple on G.890 Half-Standard Rootstock

• (p) 2x Kinnaird’s Choice Apple on G.210 Semi-Dwarf Rootstock

• (p) 1x Liberty Apple on G.41 Dwarf Rootstock

• (p) 1x NY 35 (Bonkers) Apple on G.41 Dwarf Rootstock

• (p) 1x Redfree Apple on G.210 Semi-Dwarf Rootstock

• (p) 1x Sieversii #8 (PI 613984) Sieversii Apple on G.210 Semi-Dwarf Rootstock

• (p) 1x Stokes Poveshon Apple on G.11 Dwarf Rootstock

• (p) 8x Sundance Apple on G.41 Dwarf Rootstock

• (p) 2x Sweet Sixteen Apple on G.41 Dwarf Rootstock

• (p) 1x Tsugaru Apple on G.890 Half-Standard Rootstock

• (p) 3x Williams Pride Apple on G.11 Dwarf Rootstock

Apricot

• 1x Harglow Apricot on St. Julien A Dwarf Rootstock

• 1x Puget Gold Apricot on St. Julien A Dwarf Rootstock

Cherry

• (p) 1x Meteor Cherry (Sour) on Krymsk 6

• (p) 1x Surefire Cherry (Sour) on Krymsk 7

• 1x Black Gold Cherry (Sweet) on Gisela 3 Mini-Dwarf Rootstock

• 1x White Gold Cherry (Sweet) on Gisela 3 Mini-Dwarf Rootstock

Fig

• 1x Celeste Fig on Own roots

• 1x Chicago hardy Fig on Own roots

• 1x LSU Purple Fig on Own roots

Hazelnut

• 1x Grand Traverse Hazelnut on Own roots

• 1x The Beast Hazelnut on Own roots

Jujube

• 1x Honey Jar Jujube on Ziziphus jujuba seedling

• 1x Li Jujube on Ziziphus jujuba seedling

Mandarin (Experimental)

• 1x Owari Satsuma Mandarin on Flying Dragon rootstock

  • Planted 6’ in front of southern-facing brick wall

NectaPlum

• 1x Spice Zee NectaPlum on Viking Standard Rootstock

Nectarine

• (p) 1x Ozark Mango Nectarine on BY520-9 Standard Rootstock

• 1x Red Gold Nectarine on Nemaguard Standard Rootstock

Paw Paw

• 1x Potomac Paw Paw on Asimina triloba rootstock

• (p) 1x Shenandoah Paw Paw on Asimina triloba rootstock

  • Failed to thrive in 2026 due to inadequate shade, retrying in spring 2027

Peach

• (p) 1x Contender Peach on BY520-9 Nematode Resistant Rootstock

• 1x Saturn Peach on St. Julien A Dwarf Rootstock

  • Experimental

• 1x Veteran Peach on Citation Semi-Dwarf Rootstock

Pear

• 1x Maxie Pear (Asian x European) on OHxF 87 Semi-Dwarf Rootstock

• (p) 1x Korean Giant aka Olympic Pear (Asian) on OHxF 97 Standard Rootstock

• (p) 2x Shinko Pear (Asian) on OHxF 97 Standard Rootstock

• (p) 1x Chapin Pear (European) on OHxF 87 Semi-Dwarf Rootstock

• (p) 1x Cold Snap Pear (European) on OHxF 87 Semi-Dwarf Rootstock

• 1x Conference Pear (European) on OHxF 87 Semi-Dwarf Rootstock

• (p) 1x Magness Pear (European) on OHxF 87 Semi-Dwarf Rootstock

• (p) 1x Potomac Pear (European) on OHxF 87 Semi-Dwarf Rootstock

• (p) 1x Shenandoah Pear (European) on OHxF 87 Semi-Dwarf Rootstock

Persimmon

• 1x Jiro Persimmon (Fuyu) on D. lotus Semi-Dwarf Rootstock

Pluerry

• 1x Flavor Punch Pluerry on Citation Semi-Dwarf Rootstock

• 1x Sweet Treat Pluerry on Myro 29C Semi-Dwarf Rootstock

• (p) 1x Obilinaja Plum (Japanese Plum x Pluerry) on Krymsk 1 Semi-dwarf Rootstock

Plum

• (p) 1x Byrongold Plum (Asian) on Myrobalan Standard Rootstock

• (p) 1x Rubysweet Plum (Asian) on Myrobalan Standard Rootstock

• 1x Blau de Belgique Plum (European) on St. Julien A Dwarf Rootstock

• (p) 1x Damson Plum (European) on Myrobalan Standard Rootstock

• 1x Geneva Mirabelle Plum (European) on St. Julien A Dwarf Rootstock

• (p) 1x Jam Session Plum (European) on Myrobalan Standard Rootstock

Pluot (Experimental)

• 1x Dapple Dandy Pluot on Mariana 2624 Semi-dwarf Rootstock

• 1x Flavor Grenade Pluot on Myro 29C Semi-Dwarf Rootstock

• 1x Flavor Supreme Pluot on Myro 29C Semi-Dwarf Rootstock

Pomegranate

• 1x Azadi Pomegranate on Own roots

• 1x Wonderful Pomegranate on Own roots

  • Experimental

Blackberry

• 1x Arapaho Blackberry

• 1x Caddo Blackberry

• 1x Chester Blackberry

• 1x Hull Blackberry

• 1x Snowbank Blackberry (White)

Blueberry

• 1x Aurora Blueberry (Northern High Bush)

• 1x Chandler Blueberry (Northern High Bush)

• 1x Earliblue Blueberry (Northern High Bush)

• 1x Jersey Blueberry (Northern High Bush)

• 1x Powderblue Blueberry (Rabbiteye)

• 2x Premier Blueberry (Rabbiteye)

• 1x Emerald Blueberry (Southern High Bush)

• 1x Misty Blueberry (Southern High Bush)

• 1x Sunshine Blue Blueberry (Southern High Bush)

• 1x Pink Lemonade Blueberry (Special/Solo)

Honeyberry

• 1x Yezberry Maxie Honeyberry

• 1x Yezberry Solo Honeyberry

Hardy Kiwi (with a containment plan)

• 1x Annasnaja (Female) Kiwi (Hardy) + 1x Male Kiwi (Hardy)

Raspberry (in 15 gallon pots)

• 1x Royalty Raspberry (Purple)

• 1x Joan J Raspberry (Red)

• 1x Anne Raspberry (Yellow)

Strawberry (2x towers)

• 40x Albion Strawberry

Asparagus

• ~100 sq ft Jersey Jumbo Asparagus
• ~100 sq ft Purple Passion Asparagus

Flowering Herbaceous Native/Nativar Perennials

• 50x Asclepias syriaca (Milkweed), straight species

• 38x Baptisia ‘Lunar Eclipse’ (False Indigo x Wild Indigo)

• 50x Liatris spicata ‘Dense Blazing Star’

• 50x Monarda Bradburiana (Eastern Beebalm)

• 50x Pycnanthemum Flexuosum (Appalachian Mountainmint)

• 32x Schizachyrium scoparium (Little Bluestem) ‘Twilight Zone’

  • This is my C4 photosynthesis plant

• 50x Solidago Rugosa (Goldenrod) ‘Fireworks’

• 50x Symphotrichum Oblongifolium (Aromatic Aster)

• 8x Achillea millefolium (Yarrow) Lilac Beauty

• 8x Achillea millefolium (Yarrow) Paprika Red

Evergreen Windbreak; nativar unless noted otherwise

• 7x Juniperus virginiana (Eastern Redcedar) ‘Taylor’ on Hetzi Rootstock

• 54x Ilex glabra (Inkberry Holly) ‘Squeeze Box’

• 7x Kanjiro Camellia sasanqua (non-native)

• 6x Shishi Gashira Camellia sasanqua (non-native)

• 7x Yuletide Camellia sasanqua (non-native)

• 2x Morella cerifera (wax myrtle) ‘Don’s Dwarf’

Perennial Herbs and Spices

• 50x Saffron Autumn Crocus

• 1x Phenomenal French Lavendar

• 2x Arp Rosemary

Chop and Drop Herbaceous Perennials

• 28x Comfrey ‘Bocking 14’

• 1x Comfrey ‘Variegated Axminster Gold’

Groundcover Herbaceous Native Perennials

• 148x Carex Pensylvanica

• 56x Packera aurea (Golden Ragwort)

• Propegating existing:

  • Phlox subulata

  • Common Blue Violet

  • Wild Strawberry

  • American Plantain

  • Wood Sedge

  • White clover (overseeded)

  • Mini clover (overseeded)

Gourmet Mushrooms

• 2x Lion’s Mane Mushroom on Black Oak Cookies

• 3x Reishi Mushroom on Red Oak Logs

• 4x Shiitake ‘Double Jewel’ on Black Oak Logs

• 4x Shiitake ‘WR-46’ on Black Oak Logs

• 1x Shiitake ‘WR-46’ on Red Oak Stump

• 1x Summer Oyster on Tulip Poplar Stump

• ~30 sq ft Wine cap on Shredded Hardwood Mulch

[Noddykitty]

Sounds like a wonder place. You should post some pics.

[Audi_o_phile]

@Noddykitty

You should post some pics.

Agreed, I would love to see some pictures. I’m imagining visions in my head already though.

[SpiderDove]

More pictures to come, here are some to get us started though

First, here is a site map. The violet items are planned, everything else is already established. Note that plants are displayed on this map at mature sizes but they are not there yet.

East Orchard, autumn 2025

East Orchard, autumn 2026

West Orchard, late spring 2025. That’s the Honeycrisp planted in the first group as a reference point.

West Orchard, 2026

Blackberries, spring 2026

Blackberries, Autumn 2026

Blueberries and pomegranate circle, Autumn 2026

I’m not a huge fan of hardscape. So used available hardwood logs to make a hugelkultur bed on top of some old brick pavers with spaces in between them.
Pre-Hugelkultur, 2025

Hugelkultur spring 2026

Hugelkultur autumn 2026

South orchard, autumn 2026

~200 year old Red oak tree was threatening to fall on the house from hearwood rot damage. I got a consultation and following recommendations from the James River Soil Water Conservation District established conservation landscaping incorporating hardwood log wattles from the red oak that needed to come down. This is had huge effect on the site, which previously suffered from erosion and soil/nutrient loss.

Moving those logs caused a lot of soil disturbance too and set back areas once dominated by clover to crabgrass. Those areas got overseeded and planted with native perennial plugs, so hoping for a stronger mix in 2027 again.

Summer 2026

You may have noticed squash growing all over- thats a way we are injecting productivity and using available space/light while the perennials establish. This is open pollination results of last years sugar pumpkin and honeynut squash growing in the logs here.

Here is the Honeycrisp in Autumn 2026. 10% of branches had CAR this year, on those branches ~12% of leaves had CAR and were physically removed/bagged. That’s the composting area behind it, themophilic on the left, static with worms on the right.

I broadcast a bunch of zinnia this year, as a stop gap to help get pollinators established here and support the overall population. The perennial plugs are in, but as they say “root-shoot-scoot” and this is still the ‘root’ year.

It’s seems like a lot on the plant list, but you see how much room there is still left to work with! Spring 2027 is a big one with the fruiting walls, but I’m already thinking about removing that deck (which is currently surviving with DIY repairs, but it’s going to be a safety issue in a few years per inspection.) with a small (no-fish) wildlife pond designed to support visiting turtles, frogs, toads, et broader beneficials.

This is an AI-generated inspiration image of what I am picturing. The site is on a 12° angle, so the house is 2-5’ uphill from the pond which got lost here but seems important.

[Tiirsys]

That site map looks way better than mine! What program did you use?
Overall great work and organization! I can only dream of being that organized! I love the vision. Great work, really!

[Eme]

I am so impressed with the massive amount of work you have done in just two seasons on top of the heavy research and learning prior to actually doing the physical work.

Sounds like you have so much enthusiasm and knowledge to put into place, test and learn. Really cool space you’re working with. What state/area are you in?

What does “controllability” mean here?:

@SpiderDove

How much biological complexity and crop diversity can be superimposed on a FUWUFF without losing controllability?

Just a note, I find it odd you planted so many junipers/any at all with such an interest in apples.as you noted one had CAR…if you’re not attached to them, you might want to switch them out while they are still relatively new.

Are elderberries and serviceberries not native to your area? Based on what you listed I would think they might be and would be part of the plan? Maybe I missed it. It’s so extensive and thorough!!!

[Joao]

Sounds like a proper project. Removing established ivy is no joke, it has a way of just coming back from whatever root fragments you missed. The slope will be interesting to work with once the food forest gets going though, drainage and microclimate-wise.

[SpiderDove]

<3 Thank you! I use Inkscape for site designs. It’s a Free Open Source Software (FOSS) for vector graphic design, comparable to Adobe Illustrator. It has a little bit of a learning curve, but being able to toggle layers on and off, plus mass update cloned objects as needed makes it very friendly to evolve and maintain over time.

Here is the same design file, but I turned off some layers and added my microclimates map to help inform plant placements.

This layer is all about visualizing how water is moving across the site during storms and heavy rain events.

This view is how observation suggests soil profiles are have developed and represent separate soil testing areas. I’m also interested to do tests by each espalier row but that’s not represented here yet.

[SpiderDove]

Thank you, I appreciate that very much! It is definitely a labor of love and a passion driven pursuit. This is Richmond, VA; on the outskirts but still in city limits.

The cedar trees are something I’ve struggled with whether to keep or remove as well- here is my thought process

Because the site is only 115’ on the longest dimension, I have limited capacity for full size windbreak trees. The ‘Taylor’ Eastern Redcedar are planted on all corners plus the centers of exposed East and West windbreaks.

PROs

• It is exceptionally effective at safely reducing high winds in the 10-20’ high range. Nothing else in my system supports that height.

• Extreme columnar form without pruning (3’ wide x 20 ft tall), so it fits very well in ultra-high-density systems

• Very tidy and formal appearance

• Reliably evergreen here

• A preferred roosting habitat for Eastern Screech Owls; also used by several other species of owls and kestrels.

CONs

• High flammability rating

• Host for Cedar Apple Rust (CAR) and there are tons of apple trees in the orchard.

I can help manage the fire risk by keeping the bottom 3-4’ totally bare to the trunk and staying on top of removing interior dead material up to as high as I can reach with 6’ ladder.

CAR is a big one, especially because Eastern Redcedar is native here. There is a minimum of 2 already in each of my neighbors yards, including one with over 20 just a couple hundred feet away so baseline CAR pressure is near-peak intensity, while mine are closer I don’t think removing them will meaningfully reduce total CAR pressure. I’m strongly favoring varieties with good resistances, particularly fireblight and CA. Limited exceptions, namely Honeycrisp, are considered purely experimental and intended to serve as a measure for a known non-resilient baseline. In reality it was also a housewarming gift right after moving it so it got planted lol. These exceptions will come out if they start to pose any threat to the broader system, or prove unproductive. One advantage of the smaller espalier and vertical axis trees is that its much easier to get good spray coverage on all sides/materials. At this time I am committed to a purely biological IPM approach, more on that to come in a longer dedicated post. But trying to say here- I’m definitely thinking about CAR, looking out for and trying to be proactive against it.

My core rationale for keeping the Taylor ERC on site is: The site is at risk of damage from high wind events and the home has a related historical insurance claim. The mitigation against high winds at 10-20’ H in the air column outweighs the further CAR pressure it adds to already near-peak baseline CAR pressure. I’ve failed to identify other options which fit the dimensional plus windbreak efficacy requirements so far, but to be clear- if I could identify another perfect fit I would swap out the Taylor ERC in a heartbeat.

I’m very option to differing conclusions and other first hand experience with immediate vs near ERC proximity effects too!

__
Re: “controllability,” I’m trying to convey the ability to steer the system toward its desired state, as opposed to requiring rigid control or preventing any particular species from becoming dominant. A controllable system should be allowed considerable ecological autonomy while still permitting targeted intervention to preserve the formal structure and respond to pest pressures as needed. Ideally, increasing ecological autonomy should reduce the need for intervention over time.

__
Mulberries and serviceberries are a great idea which honestly I haven’t given enough consideration to. Volunteer mulberries are popping up, so I’m letting them stay, with light pruning, when in convenient areas and hoping its nice fruit or at least something wildlife will benefit from. I’ll do some more researching on here about mulberries and serviceberries- they should be at least considered in the core plantings, the volunteers aren’t even mapped yet

[Eme]

You have thought of everything! Mentioning wanting slim trees reminded me of Sender silhouette sweetgums and columnar oaks. If you haven’t looked at those, while not evergreen, they might be an alternative. Although they might ultimately require pruning, thujas would give you a fast growing screen and wind block without hurting your apples- and serviceberries. If you’re not spraying anything, I wouldn’t bother planting serviceberries with all those redcedars. But, definitely add elderberries! I can send you sticks in January if you want if for not other reason, they bloom after most other things and distract the birds a bit from your other Berry bushes.

[SpiderDove]

Thuja options look very promising, I’m going to run that down further and see if it’s not the perfect replacement for those windbreak spots- thank you!

I would love to try planting some elderberry too, thank you for the offer of propagation material!

__

I do spray, but perhaps not a conventional tank mixture; every 7-14 days depending on current pest pressure/cycles or after 0.2" of rain. My regular seasonal tank mix is:

• Regalia (extract of giant knotweed, Reynoutria sachalinensis). This is intended to induce systemic resistance (ISR), priming the plant’s defense responses. It is a preventative rather than a curative treatment, so my plan is to begin using it early and maintain regular applications as the trees grow, with the goal of enhancing disease resistance and supporting overall plant health.

• Double Nickel (Bacillus amyloliquefaciens strain D747). This is a biological fungicide/bactericide containing beneficial bacteria that compete for resources, making it harder for disease-causing fungi and bacteria to establish. It also produces antimicrobial metabolites that inhibit certain fungal and bacterial pathogens. On-label diseases include Fire Blight, Cedar Apple Rust, Apple Scab, Bacterial Canker, Bacterial Leaf Spot, Brown Rot Blossom Blight, Peach Leaf Curl, Powdery Mildew, and Gray Mold. Note: Fire blight, brown rot, and apple scab are labeled “suppression only”.

• Nu Film (poly-1-p-menthene) is pinolene derived from pine resin added as a sticker-spreader to improve spray coverage and adhesion to plant surfaces, helping reduce wash-off and extend the persistence of other products.

Throughout the season, based on when pest cycles are in their larval stage, I also spray specific types of beneficial nematodes. Long term I’m aiming to cultivate high numbers of beneficial nematodes and establish them persistently all over the site.

Last year I applied milky spore powder in a grid across the entire site. It can take a few years to become fully established and provide widespread control, but I’m already finding grubs showing signs of infection.

Japanese and green June beetles were still present in pretty high numbers this year, so I wound up using Bacillus thuringiensis subsp. galleriae (Btg) strain SDS-502 (brand name BeetleGone!). This is different from the more familiar Bt strains used for caterpillars. Btg produces a Cry8Da protein specifically active against susceptible scarab beetles. It was extremely effective, but I had to reapply when Japanese beetle season transitioned into green June beetle season.

[JohannsGarden]

Why does so much of this read like an AI generated post? It doesn’t feel like it’s written by a real person. @SpiderDove Are you using AI software to help you generate the wording and formatting of your posts?

[SpiderDove]

@JohannsGarden Barring the AI-generated inspiration photo which was introduced as such, my ideas, selections, and approaches were forged through months of research and iterative refinement.

If you do not care for my writing style or project, please feel encouraged to ignore both.

[JohannsGarden]

@SpiderDove

If you do not care for my writing style or project, please feel encouraged to ignore

It’s not about whether or not I like your writing style. It’s just about how there are trends in AI style of writing that I was picking up on here. AI is such a fast developing technollogy, and I’ve seen AI bots enter other forums in the past. If you’re real and actually writing your own posts, then I have no issue with you. Forgive me if I remain suspicious though.

[benthegirl]

I like your plans and I very much hope they work out. We’re not too far apart. I’m not exactly a believer in this kind of thing, but I’m hoping it works for you.

I’m almost certain though that you won’t be able to grow serviceberry or CAR susceptible apples that close to juniper/Eastern Red Cedar (unless you’re willing to spray fungicide). You might manage for a year or two before the spores really get going. Same with brown rot for stone fruit. If you let any of these get established they will just get worse. Pick up every drop and remove every infected leaf and infected fruit. It’s helped me keep my spray program minimal.

I know you said you’d come to an understanding with deer/rabbit/squirrel. Does your neighborhood not have them? It might be worth putting some small fence around the base of your trees for winter, while they’re young, to protect against rabbits that eat their bark. It would be very sad to have your trees girdled by rabbits before they even get started.

[Audi_o_phile]

@JohannsGarden

Why does so much of this read like an AI generated post?

I think I understand what you are experiencing, I would liken it to a more formal writing style than the conversational that many people employ on the forum. It makes me all the more curious what @SpiderDove’s educational background and occupation are.

[Eme]

I’ve only been spraying for 2 seasons, but I use regalia, Monterey complete (which is the same as your second with the D747) and I added Arber this year as a few helpful people pointed out the f747 is a better strain. I think that made a big difference. Especially for my table grape. There are some junipers around me, but not quite as immediate as what you have. My serviceberries were clean and edible with both regimens whereas they were rust covered the year prior to spraying. Apple leaves get only a few spots of CAR and only on a few varieties. I’m encouraged because Goldrush grafted in two spots this year stayed mostly clean. But, no fruit yet to really judge. It’s a time suck spraying once a week versus a few sprays a season you can get away with doing synthetics. But, you’ve been doing it the two years I have, so you have likely figured that out!

All that said, I’m trying predominately the “add to the bugs/not detract” approach you are clearly going for. I think realistic expectations are important. And, I’ve had to use copper quite a few times, which is a big subtraction bomb, but was needed. I’m absolutely not skipping it this year at delayed dormant with oil. You have more land and coastal help than my site, but worth looking at Scott’s low impact spray schedule to see what can help you along the way since we are not in a no-spray friendly zone. Fedco has a great write up of the MP spray as well, that if I had more time I would absolutely do. I plan on adding in bits and pieces each year collecting data. I’m just figuring it out like you are, just without all the big fancy names for it all

[benthegirl]

@Eme

I’ve had to use copper quite a few times, which is a big subtraction bomb,

I assume “bugs” is insects and their relatives? What does copper do to insects?

I also suggest trying sulfur as part of your dormant or as an organic fungicide. You have to be a bit careful with it as some plants don’t like it, but it does work. I’ve done sulfur + oil instead of copper on apples and pears.

Peaches I use copper for leaf curl and apricots can’t be sprayed with sulfur.

[Eme]

I don’t think I wrote bugs? It just kills off a lot of microbes. Which I’ve needed when I’ve used it. Personally, I haven’t used sulfur yet because I’m allergic to it. I purchased it and only after a year of it sitting around, it occurred to me that it’s probably not a great idea to spray it. But that’s as far as I’ve gotten, and haven’t had time to look into it further. I use sulfur in soil amendments…different topic

[benthegirl]

@Eme

“add to the bugs/not detract”

I was referring to this - and I guess you meant microbes!!

@Eme

haven’t used sulfur yet because I’m allergic to it

I have elemental sulfur - you might be able to find it. I think I got mine at a garden store. It doesn’t have any other stuff (its not the bactericide nor a sulfite). I don’t think people can be allergic to elemental sulfur.

It can irritate your lungs (because it’s a powder and some can become a gas when mixed with water) and I wear a mask when mixing and spraying it. But within a few hours of being sprayed I’ve not noticed the irritating effects anymore (though the REI is 24 hours - so I guess stay away for 24 hours to be safe).

Most of the copper stuff I’ve seen has a 24 or 48 hour REI so I guess it’s not too different from that.