I am a licensed commercial sprayer and the first thing you are taught when you get a license is the the label is the law. Of course, many in this field are not the sharpest tool in the shed- with the low esteem the public holds for spraying synthetic chemicals these days this is a job at the caste level of garbage collector (or in India, the butcher).
But it is true that there is some responsibility being taken here even as lies were being told (blaming the humidity and cloudy conditions). That is a common human level of dishonesty and I wouldn’t want to crucify the man for that. However, the sprayer either works for a company or owns his own business and is entirely responsible for not reading the label- this is not a hobbyist, he had to pass a reasonably rigorous process to get his NY license if he actually has one.
Presumably the advisor is working for or owns the company selling the chemicals. They pass an even stricter test. This is not a common kind of mistake, IMO, and shows a high level of incompetence.
Hope they recover for you. FWIW, I’ve never believed Captan alone could cause that much, of that type of damage at any concentration.
I use Captan 80 and generally spray at, or near max levels and I’ve yet to see one iota of damage of any kind. I spray everything with it too…including pears.
Most of what I’ve read regarding Captan burn was when used in combination with sulfur…and I even spray that combo as well.
A mistake drives a lesson deeper than any fine.
His loss of license, livelihood or an assessed fine will not restore anything to you.
Do what you can to make sure no one else is hurt in the same way, and then best to just let it go.
uuhmmm…no it doesn’t. I have no idea where you got this notion, but it’s not true. I realize that things have come forth and everything and that herbicides in this case are maybe unlikely, but wherever you got this idea it’s wrong. Weeks…months…are you kidding me?
I don’t believe he’d lose his license for a mistake- usually the fines aren’t too steep for first offense. But what if he’s spraying without a license altogether?
When you leave the constraints of a village culture the law is what we have to keep con artists and criminals from damaging the innocent. This person or these two people may be the horticultural equivalent of someone practicing medicine without a degree.
Actually Apple, I’ve sorta seen this when I use glyphosate. Certainly not months (unless) there was a small amount of drift involved which hit a tree, then it might take a month to show up (which is perhaps what Fruitnut meant). But I would say it can take the upwards of two weeks to see any real damage from glyphosate on some weeds, if the weather has been cool and cloudy. Some weeds seem to burn down faster than others of course.
My experience is based on spraying a few elm and fruit trees. Like the root sprouts of cut down fruit trees. With fall spraying, the most effective time, major symptoms don’t show up until the following spring.
On my job sometimes I have to go out and measure brush spraying, using either picloram and 2,4 D or dicamba and 2,4D. You can only start to see the effects of spraying after one week and I using wait until 2 weeks. The longer it takes the leaves to turn usually results in a better kill. I have heard the applicators complain about a surfactant being too hot, resulting in a less effective kill.
Farmers have told me that if you spray johnsongrass with too much roundup, it will only kill the top and not kill the roots. If the plant showed the effects after one day, it would not kill the plant. If it took 3 days, chances were much better the roundup would kill the plant. For herbicide to be effective it has to be absorbed by the leaves and taken down the brush. In early spring with the sap going up it will not kill as well. In late spring and early fall sap is running down and a greater kill will result. In the summer some days it is moving up, some days it runs down.
I know this is opposite of what you want, but just remember that the longer it takes for the leaves to turn, the greater the change your trees may have taken in too much chemical. It usually does not happen the next day, even if sprayed at full strength.
This was the label for the surfactant that I was provided when I asked to see the label. I’m meeting with the sales rep tomorrow afternoon. It seems to me that they sprayed something that blatantly shouldn’t have been mixed with Captan. I kindda feel bad if I were to ask for money from these people, and would also feel bad if I were to report them. On the other hand I took a screwing, lost a whole season worth of fruit and set back the trees growth a year as well. some of them were newly planted and I was hoping to get there roots established this year.
I’m not an overly vengeful person, but I do thing you’ve got something coming to you for the loss (time, materials) with a wee touch of good old pain and suffering thrown in there- not too much, but a little. Dern it, we’re talking loss of innocence here, right? OK, not really. But still.
Here’s the thing for me: If I hire a professional, be it sprayer, painter, mechanic, doctor or lawyer or whatever, I do it with the reasonable expectation that it will be done right and, I hope, better than I could have done it or at least as well done in a more efficient manner. I pay pros, in short, to get it right. (Don’t get me started on HVAC people who are learning their trade on your dollar.) At the very least, don’t destroy the stuff you’re fixing!!
That is the label I posted as well. Reading it again it occurs to me that the manufacturer is partially responsible because the label is unclear. I believe it is formulated exclusively for use with herbicides but the label does not make that clear, stating it is for pesticides but then uses only herbicides as examples. The sales rep would seem to be the one most responsible of the two because that person is distributing the product for the apparently wrong purposes, but ultimately the fault may lie most with the manufacturer for not clearly spelling out the purpose of the product.
The label says it is for agricultural, non cropland uses, which is an oxymoron of a statement in itself but it must mean that it is not for use with food crops of any kind.
Ok…so you’ve sorta seen it or you’ve actually seen it? I most certainly have not. I don’t know at what concentration we’re talking about here or where you all purchase your herbicide, but it really doesn’t matter because I’m talking about low values. Glyphosate (at normal rates), or for sure 2-4D sprayed directly on a fruit trees foliage will result in damage within a single DAY…it’s a plant KILLER for crying out loud. A 2-4D Dicamba combo will begin to show damage within hours…in many cases (perhaps MOST cases) in LESS than an hour. Ortho’s label says for accidental spraying 15 mins to hose down to minimize…if you wait that long it’s probably too late. It doesn’t work through the roots like fruitnut thinks…it’s absorbed by the foliage…glyphosate has some root action.
I’ve used the stuff a lot and made mistakes with it, and from what I’m reading here I’m apparently the only one that has. Glyphosate acts slower, no doubt, but it wasn’t the only herbicide suggested, and even it acts MUCH, MUCH quicker than days, forget about weeks or months.
Olpea, did Kansas road dept. at one time use herbicide for road maintenance? You know, the strong smelling stuff that they applied with a machine sprayer? Did you ever pay attention to what happened very shortly after it was sprayed? Did you ever see oaks or maples with 5" trunks or better killed dead…forever? AND, we’re not even talking about “killed dead”, we’re talking merely about foliage damage!
If what some of you here are saying were even remotely true, Agent Orange would be a term none of us would even be the faintest bit familiar with. It is, afterall, simply a variant of 2-4D.
To suggest that it is plausible that Captan of all things could cause said damage, but not any herbicide is not logical.
Let’s not give visiting folks the wrong idea about the dangers of herbicides. They will most definitely dispatch your little fruit tree in very short order.
If anyone is foolish enough to give it a go, just go to Lowe’s or walmart and buy some (weak as can be) cheap pre-mixed herbicide (I don’t care what kind) and give your unwanted tree a good bath to runoff. When you get your coffee in the morning take along your camera to your orchard and tell us “all is well”.
Calm down Apple. The sprayer has admitted using a product that is not intended for spraying trees with. The suggestion that something designed to vastly increase the uptake of herbicides can be logically assumed to amplify the intake of Captan, and Captan-burn is a well known term amongst fruit growers where this event occurred. The burn occurs on very young leaves that are still tender, a state that may not last very long under your stronger sun. It is an issue on years here with prolonged wet and grey periods in early spring which is what we’ve had.
I’ve been spraying Captan for 25 years on hundreds of sites. On only one season have trees I managed suffered from Captan-burn.
What I hope a reader would draw from this topic is to read labels carefully and if there is any doubt of what is communicated there contact the manufacturer for clarification- or as labels often say- test an expendable branch.
There has been no crazy talk here. FN was talking about the mode of action of Glyp. which is entirely about it being drawn to the roots before it begins killing the plant. He’s right that if you apply it to woody perennials in the late summer or fall the results will sometimes not become apparent until spring. If you spray any plant when it isn’t shuttling energy to its roots it may not hurt it at all.
Ya appleseed what’s the deal? You’re acting like I gave recommendations that would kill someones trees. I’ve sprayed a lot of roundup for many yrs. My impression is that even on tender young weeds the results take days to be apparent. I believe they now have faster acting roundup because homeowners want results now. Maybe they added other ingredients or changed the formulation. My experience is with straight glyphosate.
I apparently inadvertently pushed a button about something you are very passionate about. I’m sorry if I got you annoyed. It wasn’t intentional.
Actually, I have seen it. I wrote “sorta” earlier because I try to be mild and gentle with my friends (just my personality). That’s what I was trying to do in my previous response. I consider you one of my “online” friends and respect what you write. It’s been helpful to me.
I go though about a 2.5 gallon jug of glyphosate a year (the 41% stuff) for the last few years, so it’s not a lot, but enough I think to make some observations for me.
Like you, I’ve also made mistakes with glyphosate. We try to be careful but it’s so easy to get some over spray on the trees. Probably the worst mistake we made was that once about 40 peach seedlings got sprayed with glyphosate a little bit. They all died of course.
Here’s an old thread on the old forum, where we made one mistake with it. We are getting better with it. Mostly just by being very very careful, especially around young trees. Your warnings about herbicide dispatching young fruit trees was well placed. Now, if we even suspect we got any glyphosate on young trees, we immediately cut the contaminated foliage off or immediately wash it off.
First of all Alan, the topic and following comments were not made in regards to late summer or fall applications, it was made in regards to spring (and given the weather, might as well say early spring). Secondly, no it is not true at all that even late summer apps don’t become apparent until spring imo…or even fall for that matter. I don’t know what on Earth all you guys are spraying, but it must be silly weak. The products are effective (and highly so) at any time the plant is actively growing…and then some). Again, the aforementioned products are designed plant killers…broadleaf defoliants.
You didn’t “push any button” Olpea, I always enjoy your plethora of knowledge concerning chemical sprays of any type,
This is from a glyphosate label and matches my experience:
Time to Symptoms:
This product moves through the plant from the point of foliage
contact to and into the root system. Visible effects on most annual weeds occur within
2 to 4 days, but on most perennial weeds may not occur for 7 days or more. Extremely
cool or cloudy weather following treatment may slow activity of this product and delay
development of visual symptoms. Visible effects are a gradual wilting and yellowing of the
plant which advances to complete browning of above-ground growth and deterioration
of underground plant parts.
There are “Roundup” mixes like Roundup QuikPRO that contain a small amount of diquat for a quick burndown. This seems to make some homeowners more satisfied with the results.
Of course when a tree or other woody perennial is already beginning the process of going into dormancy glyphosate damage doesn’t become obvious until the following spring. I have some experience with this and I have to wonder what experience you are speaking from with such adamant and combative certainty. So what if the context is not in line with the incident here, you were refuting FN’s general statement in a broad way and his statement was broad as well. The important point he made to to the topic poster (and anyone interested in the subject) was that damage wouldn’t be as immediate as it was in this case.