'Spring Satin' Plumcot

[scottfsmith]

Pruning is definitely a factor, it took me several years of trial and error before I found a system that worked for me. I grow most of my plums something like an umbrella, most of the fruit is at a similar height like a grape. But some plums just don’t pollinate in my climate however they are pruned. Flavor Supreme for example, also Santa Rosa. In Mediterranean climates like Spain or California all plums seem to pollinate well… I am envious of those lucky people!

Drew I am surprised Satsuma is not setting for you, I have the opposite problem of over setting. That can lead to lighter crops the next year if it really overdoes it. Laroda also sets super well for me but it did take a few years more to get going.

[alan]

I’m always saying that you can’t know how freaky plums are unless you grow them at several different sites in the same region (this is at least true in my S NY area). Elephant Heart at some places has been fairly consistent cropping, especially by about the 10th year, at other sites, much more fickle. My first tree was planted in a very shady location and it consistently yielded good crops of relatively small but very sweet fruit until it died. I planted my next tree in a much more open spot on my property and it was much less consistent- it’s last two years it bore very heavy crops and then it died. Santa Rosa bears with only fair consistency in my orchard, at another site I managed, it did so every season. The same thing goes for European varieties. Sometimes it seems to be a compatibility problem between two varieties- I found that LongJohn and Seneca are not compatible after realizing that they had been barren for years at two separate sites where they were the only E. plums present. When I grafted a third variety at both sites the trees started bearing good crops. I wonder how common unknown incompatibility is.

[PomGranny]

@IL847

I believe Superior pollinates toka.

Oh, good! Annie, you sent me a Superior scion that is doing well - on the Toka plum. That should be close enough to do the deed!

[IL847]

I I am glad to hear Superior found a good home there. My Toka was grafted in Superior😂. Both bear fruits, but toka fruits kinda small. I am not sure if I want to keep it

[carot]

@Jose-Albacete

2nd- To choose two or three good varieties of pollinating plums (even if they are not of good quality), to ensure the pollination of all varieties of Japanese plums, and pluots.

Hi Jose,

which varieties do you recommend as pollinator?

I always assumed growing enough different varieties of jap. plums and pluots would be enough to ensure good pollination. In my collection it is starting to show some varieties are more difficult to get good pollination with.

[alan]

Years ago I read an article in Good Fruit Grower (a publication for commercial fruit growers) that included a comment suggesting that many commercial pluot growers in the west were frustrated with productivity problems of pluots compared to plums. ​However, I just spent almost an hour searching for any reference to greater difficulty in producing pluots compared to plums and came up empty.

On this forum several people have complained about their barren pluot trees, suggesting certain varieties are not practical to grow in the east because they are extremely poor croppers here. I haven’t been growing pluots for a very long time and am far from expert on their problems bearing here, but 3 of the five pluot trees in my orchard (I’m including Spring Satin) came up empty or nearly empty this season. Spring Satin did bear about 20 fruit on a tree that should have produced a couple of bushels. Dapple Dandy and Flavor Grenade (the pluot I’ve been growing for about 8 years), are carrying good crops but required much less thinning than any of my plum trees

Every single one of my E and J plums bore very heavy crops besides Early Magic, which only has a light crop this season.

This year the likely reason is that pollinators were not working the trees when the first plums were in bloom, although they showed up and tended later blossoms on the early bloomers, somehow, the ovaries must no longer have been receptive even though the flowers still had nourishing and presumably viable pollen.

Whatever the cause, it appears east coast growers are on their own in determining productivity of plum and pluot varieties. There just aren’t enough commercial growers to spur scientific evaluations of productivity problems.

Another factor in the east may be related to bacterial spot. Flavor Rich and Flavor Finale are terribly susceptible.

I ate a bit of the single Flavor Supreme my big tree bore, it had cracked and was rotting. My heavy crop of Grenades is already worthless given how many are cracked in spite of good eastern exposure. A nearby Dapple Dandy has very little cracking and neither do the several J. plums surrounding it besides a few cracks on Shiro (but who cares, it’s water this year). Lavina plum is the only J. plum I have growing whose fruit is utterly destroyed by cracking. I have a single Flavor King graft that is loaded with uncracked fruit.

Here is an old paper about pollinating plums that I find interesting. https://ucanr.edu/sites/fruitreport/files/132874.pdf

[Drew51]

@scottfsmith

Drew I am surprised Satsuma is not setting for you,

It did 3 years ago, but the last two have been poor. It may be other factors. At least it sets some fruit.
I think that this year my low plum set is due to environment. Why it did not happen to the pluots is interesting. It was the same last year. Both years we had cool springs. Also it has been wet. I wish I could pinpoint what is going on? Plenty of variety so it should not be a pollination issue.
It is also interesting that many have the opposite problems. My pluots so overset it ridiculous. Even though I thinned my branches are sagging. I needed to thin more. I missed places.
Dapple Dandy

Geo Pride

[Jose-Albacete]

Hi again Alan.
It is certainly a bit frustrating when trees that should be fruiting properly don’t get a “half decent” crop.
From my point of view there are some points that are of vital importance, and the document that you have attached touches on some of these issues.

• First of all, the genetic predisposition of the variety in terms of fruit load must be taken into account.
  There is a quite clear example in this sense in the field of cherries and it is that normally (there are some exceptions) , the good varieties of great caliber and good flavor, are not very productive varieties (the clearest example is the wonderful variety of sweet cherry " Rocket " , which is a true wonder, but it produces very small harvests, whatever is done, does not produce a crop, not even decent.

• Secondly, both in Japanese plums, European plums and pluots, they are characterized by having a very short period of reciptivity, and this can be seen very complicated with the factors that we will see below.

• Adverse weather conditions during the flowering and fruit setting period.
  If we have a rainy year during the flowering period, we can already assure that the harvest is half lost.

• Lack of pollinating insects.
  It is not because there are no pollinating insects, the flowering period of Japanese plums and pluots is extremely early, so that most of the pollinating insects are totally inactive, especially bees, which of course do not fly in conditions of cold, windy or rainy .

• Inadequate pollinating varieties.
  There is a lot of literature regarding varieties and their pollinators, but each region of the world is a different story, and what may be valid for my region is not worth 200 kilometers in another direction, for that reason the best thing is to observe the periods of flowering, and to be acquiring empirical experience on the varieties that work well as pollinators in our orchards.

At an amateur level, we can take a couple of performances that are quite interesting.

• Inductors of flowering and fruit set
  Personally, I have very good experience with this product from the Spanish company Jisa-Jiloca

Cuajemax

https://www.fertilizantesyabonos.com/cuajemax/

As the link is in Spanish, I translate its characteristics for you

FEATURES

CUAJEMAX® is a solid mixture of soluble NPK with a high concentration of phosphorus (P2O5) with Ascophyllum nodosum algae extract.

The solid algae extract has substances of great biochemical activity in the biological processes of plants, contains carbohydrates (alginic acid and mannitol) and natural phytohormones (auxins, gibberellins and cytokinins) specific to algae of great purity and physiological activity in plants .

CUAJEMAX® is a formulation that improves the processes from floral induction to fruit set, favoring greater flowering, greater quantity of pollen and its viability under unfavorable conditions, producing an increase in fruit set.

This product has a problem, and that is that it should only be used in varieties with poor fruit set, if it is applied in varieties with good fruit set (peaches, nectarines, etc …), thinning work can be multiplied by 10.

• Second action to improve fruit set and improve plum and pluot harvests.
  Since the flowering of these varieties is extremely early, as I have already mentioned, the pollinating insects are inactive (at least in my region), so pollination is done simply by the action of the wind.

The bees during this period are inactive (at least the varieties of honey bees from Spain), so I recommend the use of bumblebees.

Be careful with this, we have to read it carefully.
Bumblebees are the best pollinators, since they have no problem flying in conditions of cold, windy and rainy .

Not all bumblebees are valid, and in each country the endemic species of each region must be used, for example here in Europe the common bumblebee (Bombus Terrestris) is used, since it is one of the European species and works wonderfully pollinating, but It cannot be introduced in a fool’s way as it can become an invasive species (in fact it is in the United States).

In the same way that there are for sale bumblebee “kits” for pollination of the Bombus Terrestris species, in the United States there should be for sale Bumblebee pollination kits of your endemic species.

These kits are available in Spain (they are for outdoor use), to be placed in the outdoor of fruit orchards .

https://controlbio.es/es/179-colmenas-para-exterior-frutales

As I avoid using chemicals as much as possible in my orchard, I have a large population of bumblebees of the Bombus Terrestris species, and in these photos you can see them in my flowering apple trees .

These are some experiences and tips that I can contribute.

Regards
Jose

[BobVance]

@scottfsmith

There is one test which should be completely reliable: take your finger and very gently swipe it over one spot. If it turns shiny you have a pure plum. If it stays satin you have SS.

I’ve got a plum based on that test.

@alan

Like I said, dead ripe, Methely is a sweet nothing

Agreed. I stopped by the farmer’s market today and had them toss in a few Methely, so I could sample and photograph them.
11 brix and not that tasty:

@speedster1

Like Alan said, when ripe Methley is very soft with no meatyness.

Agreed (see above pic)

@alan

Methely is the only plum I know of that would be ripe this early that it could be

Ebony Rose is another one, though it isn’t entirely plum (just mostly). There is a plumcot and a peachcot in it’s background.

Some have started to crack for me, so I picked a few today. Not entirely ripe (flesh was only mostly red), but not too far off. Very large size, but only 12 brix so far (pat says 17 brix).

@alan

nothing that I have found carries any of the characteristics of an apricot.

I don’t see any apricot or peach in ER either. But, maybe hints will come out if I let them hang longer. I’m not holding my breath on it though.

@mamuang

I recalle someone had a productive Toka tree. I cannot remember what pollinate it.

Mine did OK until it died. I think it was one I planted while still in a fabric pot, so that probably contributed. I had a ton of stuff around it, so it’s hard to say what did it. But, in addition to Asian plums (like Satsuma) and pluots, I also had a Superior and a Lavina close by, either of which may have helped.

@Drew51

Lavina plum is the only plum I have that seems to produce a lot.

My Lavina is massively productive. I should probably thin more…

@alan

Lavina plum is the only J. plum I have growing whose fruit is utterly destroyed by cracking.

I don’t think mine has really cracked much if any at all. Maybe I’ve got it in a good crack-resistant location. It is at the bottom of a hill in a slightly raised bed. I bet the soil never really dries out. I should put a flavor grenade down there…

@mamuang

Like Lavina, mine ended up having reddish skin instead of yellow since I let them hang for a long time. Every pic of Lavina on the Internet shows yellow skin with red blush.

I was checking Lavina out today and noticed that one branch seem to have much redder fruit than the rest of the tree (in foreground of below pic). I couldn’t find any graft unions, so maybe I have a limb sport. Or maybe that limb had less fruit and could ripen it earlier. I picked one and it was up to 16 brix, which is pretty good for Lavina. I’ll pick some more tomorrow.

[alan]

This is my first crop of Lavina from wood you gave me. If you are picking 16brix now I’m not giving up on it. However, right now it is in the worst part of my property for eastern sun. It is next to an Early Magic tree that has fruit that didn’t crack but gets a lot of bacterial spot- my nursery trees in a more favorable spot don’t have any.

If Lavina tastes as good as Early Magic that would be great for an early plum. I believe that I have an EM that is a sport also. It is pure purple skinned and ripened a few days ahead of other EM’s right next to it, and had bigger fruit. Plums seem to get sugar even when it’s wet and grey leading up to ripening, which is often the case in early summer, so this could be a useful strain.

I hope everyone is as excited as I am by how brix is coming up. I’m harvesting amazing peaches and nectarines right now- some of the Silver Gem have that dull skin look that means very high brix and they are as sweet as I want them to be with beautiful flesh tinged with red.

Adams suggests Jade ripens before SG, but that has never happened here, Jade is just a bit later and I picked a couple ready to ripen indoors yesterday. They are much bigger fruit than SG and the first season it bore fruit it was a cracker but there are no cracks this year. Big and beautiful.

[mamuang]

Bob,
I picked my Spring Satin yesterday. It was very ripe with wrinkled skin. It still kept it shape without being mushy. It was not able to squeeze juice to measure brix. It tasted fine but not outstanding like some people said. Maybe, because it was a wet year.

@alan - I picked a few Early Magic yesterday, the ones that soft to the touch because I did not want them to crack by today’s rain. Not that sweet. Average brix was 12. They were probably not fully ripe.

[alan]

After the big tropical storm we really haven’t had unusual precip and the last 2 weeks have been excellent fruit weather because none of the predicted storms ended up doing much here. You probably got some of the rain we missed, but EM is not quite as sweet as it can be- the same thing, I’m sure, with Spring Satin. When I get a chance I’ll measure the brix of one of my EMs.

I think the ones I’ve eaten have to be at least 14 because they are really quite good. Yours look a little weird with all that browning that looks like oxidation of the flesh but that might me just the nature of the photo.

[mamuang]

The pic was taken during a cloudy sky. No oxidation, just shadow. We got rain until two days ago. There were two days of sun and is raining again today.

When forecast says, “scattered showers or scattered thunder storms”, we often get it. Good for grass, not for fruit ripening.

[alan]

Actually, I just cut one open that had the same look because it had been ripened to soft on a counter for a few days. It only has 12 brix and doesn’t have any real sweetness to it (basically a spitter), so I have to assume that the good ones I’m harvesting are at at least 14.

Hate the weather this morning-until now it had been feeling like CA for a good stretch.

[Auburn]

Because of its reputation as self fruitful and being a good pollinator almost all the local nurseries sell and promote Methley. In my opinion AU Rosa is a better tasting self fruitful choice and has a very good disease rating. AU Cherry plum is another disease resistant self fruitful variety. Taste wise AU Cherry wouldn’t be a taste improvement as to me it is similar to Methley.

[alan]

But Methely is very early- up here there a lots of better tasting plums that ripen later.

[scottfsmith]

@alan

If Lavina tastes as good as Early Magic that would be great for an early plum.

It is much better than EM in my orchard. It is also quite a bit later. My EMs are finishing, and Shiro and Weeping Santa Rosa are starting. Lavina will have some ready in about a week (one ripened super early and I ate it yesterday).

Lavina has this cantaloupe-ish bit in the flavor when it is fully ripe, I love it!! It is one of the plums I absolutely have to have. I am excited that I am finally back in production after my previous tree got a cankered root.

This might be the last year for Shiro for me, I added a bunch of varieties to that tree and Shiro is not the most consistently great plum so I might just call it a wrap. I put Elephant Heart and Luisa on the stock. EM is also pretty much gone on this stock, there is only one small limb left. It is very low and spreading so I have been able to grow many varieties on it, I think I have seven now.

[alan]

Laroda is also one of your favorite plums, ,but after the first season it has been ordinary and not nearly as good to my palate as EM. How can I tell if it is about location or palate.

I am looking forward to seeing where Laroda goes this season. I’ve put Elephant Heart grafts on it to take over if it doesn’t prove itself here this season.

[alan]

I think, a big difference in your evaluations compared to mine is that the most important thing to me after reliable cropping is relative quality at time of bearing. Therefore, for my experience, Flavor May is an utterly unexpendable peach. It really doesn’t matter if 3 weeks later I have nectarines of better overall quality and larger freestone peaches that taste as good. You also seem to be very drawn to unusual and unexpected flavors and my main interest is relative brix and acid balance, texture and beauty of fruit. I am OK with unusual aromas and flavors in the fruit, but not especially drawn to them. If I can grow a nectarine with 25 brix, I don’t even care if all I taste is sugar- not that I don’t equally appreciate the acid-sugar balance in the nectarines I grow that never surpass about 16-17 brix… Your region may tend to allow you to grow sweeter fruit than mine in the first place. For me, the 2 points difference between Tomcot and Sugar Pearls makes SP the superior cot.

Early Magic has only one rival for me, and that is Methely, which is not nearly as flavorful and texturally pleasing for me-plus Methely is black-knot Mary. 3 weeks later is an entirely different context in my orchard. My evaluation of EM is based on that but it is also my baby as I’m the only source of the variety in tree form, as far as I know, so when you dismiss it as being mediocre, you are insulting my adopted child. But even if it was widely available I believe I would respect it much more than you do for simply being the best plum in its season.

[alan]

One I just picked this morning was 15 and wasn’t completely ripe.