Question - I’ve been more diligently watching sun in the area my mini orchard will be planted this fall. 3 of the spots are full sun, 2 of the spots were full sun but now in August, it’s dropped to 7 hours as the house shadow creeps out faster, and I expect that to drop more in fall. I was going to plant apples in those two spots, but now I’m wondering if I should I put trees with fruit that ripen beginning and mid summer/before August? I assume the apples need a spot with full sun all the way until the fruit is ripened not just at mid summer?
Over the years I have learned that nothing will ever be perfect. I’m in the middle of a forest. The previous owner must of cut down all the trees in the first front acre. I have tall pines on the east and west sides that shades a lot of the trees I have on the east and west sides. Not ideal conditions but it works only because I tried. They all fruit and get to proper color. Some trees are shaded by the other more mature trees but they all fruit and taste great. I’m sure in a perfect situation they would grow better, dry better and faster so less disease prone, fruit will taste better and so on.
Just get out there and have fun and pay close attention at what works for you in your micro climate. Failure is part of learning so don’t be scared to fail. I lost so many trees over the years and it used to hurt so much. I lost 1 sweet cherry and my favorite peach tree this year so far. It doesn’t hurt anymore because now I look forward to growing something else.
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Thanks! Learning not to attach has been a big lesson this year! In the last few years I’ve moved such a high percentage of what I’ve planted as I see what works where. But, since I can choose what to put where to start, in an ideal situation, should fruit that ripens later in the year have more sun later in the year?
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Apples naturally are an understory tree so I think if I were starting from scratch I’d look for sun when blooming and just starting to set fruit (to avoid early fungal and bacterial diseases) and areas of better soil that drains but either isn’t too dry or can be easily watered.
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You already stated the answer. Later ripening with more sun and early ripening in areas with less. As a side note pears are much more shade tolerant than apples. I have things like hazels, gooseberry, ect. in near total shade. They grow way slower, but they still grow and fruit.
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Oh that’s interesting, I didn’t realize apples were understory trees. Thanks for the tips from you both.
I’m going to completely go the other way from the answers so far.
I feel like I got a ton of benefit from planning and reading tons of threads on this site. I think it’s really smart that you’re watching how much sun each location gets and thinking about this.
Of course, If your location isn’t perfect you should still try and the lessons from things that don’t work out are important - but why not maximize what you can?
I will say though some things I really worried about based on various opinions ended up being unimportant at my location or for my preferences. And there wasn’t really a way to know that in advance. I did try to do things like planting peaches on mild slope since they bloom early and that will get them cold air drainage. And when I planned my garden, I put the tall berry bushes to the north.
Some questions to answer or think about:
- What are the other fruits you want?
- How big are the trees/rootstocks?
- Do you want taller or shorter trees? Spacing? Are they going to be fenced or protected from critters?
Some thoughts on apples, pears, peaches:
I’ve never thought of apples as an understory tree and never seen them grown in shade. I’ve heard that baldwin apples do okay in those conditions but every apple tree I’ve seen with overhead shade is very unhappy.
That said, apple trees don’t seem to mind some shade from the side and 7 hours of direct sun would still be “full sun”. Sure, you might not get as perfect or sweet a fruit. However, that’s hours more sun than some of my apple trees are getting and even from those sad apple trees, the apples are better than grocery store ones.
If you can keep the canopy thinned and the tree in a nice shape, you can count on light from the top and one side making it into the tree. If you look at fancy people with espalier trees or some of the new growing systems - you will see some ways that trees do well with partially obstructed sun.
If you have horrible tall leggy trees that all block each other and giant shady oaks like I do, thoughtful placement is more on your mind.
Pears seem to respond to any sort of shade by growing straight up. Well - apparently, pears just like to grow straight up. But I think they become unmanagably tall faster than others. I cannot comment on them bearing fruit with some shade, since they are the most fussy of trees I’ve grown.
I know it’s important for peach trees to get good light penetration in the canopy and be well thinned. And I do think they are more sensitive to not getting light than the apples. And I hear they are fussy about getting light.
But I have 2 peach trees that have done very well in conditions that sound very much like what you’re describing. One is shaded on three sides so only the south side and top get direct sun. And by August, the south of the tree is in shade for the whole afternoon (from my house). So this tree gets 6+ hours of direct sun from about Mid April-July and less the rest of the time. But it’s got really good peaches. I would say though that it’s really pushing it. The tree that gets slightly less sun in my yard does poorly.
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Thank you for sharing your experiences. I am certainly rethinking everything. I guess it’s good I can’t plant until Fall as I’ve drifted so far from my original spring plan! At this point, I’m making a chart with attributes of the tiny property and moving the trees around until it feels right. Soil is different in the 3 spots around the property and sun. The front yard spot I’m referring to here will have the best draining soil and be fenced. Second best soil across the driveway from it but unprotected. Backyard is crappy soil, protected, was full sun, but have discovered this year that the old trees in my southwest corner have grown in so much that now I have had an yard of afternoon shade. The two trees are coming down in winter, and it’ll be a rather big question as to how much sun it gets next year/as neighbor trees grow. It was much easier to view it all through my nonspecific, just growing perennials and veggies lenses!!!
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This is not true for the species domestic apples came from Malus sieversii.
In the natural habitat in Central asia they form extensive forests where they are the dominant tree in a climax forest ecosystem
This may be true for other species of wild apples but not for domestic apples
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Depends on who you ask. Permaculturists say oak and chestnut are the canopy, with apples under. Doesn’t mean you have to grow them that way, but they do grow and fruit in that natural association. Check out Mark Shepard’s Restoration Agriculture for a thriving American example.
I have several enormous oaks on the southwest side of my lower orchard, and they shade the trees from about 3:00 on in the afternoon. They provide a great natural leaf mulch and micorrhizae.
That said, I removed several 20’ and taller prune plums that shaded small trees on the northeast side. Mom won’t eat them and I am not selling anything until I retire, and I have another dozen of the same trees that planted themselves (or spread by roots) elsewhere anyway. The problem with the northeast shade is too much morning shade, especially in the spring when leaves and blossoms are wet and prone to disease.