If I tip-root black raspberries now, with 3 good months of root growth left, will primocane growth in 2022 be sufficient for a passable 2023 crop?
If you give it a good sized pot early on you should get a small crop next year. I’ve even gotten fruit from first year tip rooted plants if I’ve left enough stem on the new plant.
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i second Berry Allen point.
Not with black raspberry, but with normal raspberry’s, blackberry’s, tayberry’s and Japanese wineberry’s if all had small harvests the year after rooting. And a substantial harvest the year after that.
I tend to leave the tip rooting shoot on until well into the dormant season. It has 50+ roots at that point. with a decent length 4-8" usually.
And keeping the shoot that tip rooted long, when separating in the dormant season, will leave you plenty of 1y old cane to set fruit on in the spring.
My experience with black raspberry’s is limited (1 variety, that i neglected)
But as far as I’m aware, most black raspberry’s are of the floricane group.
Also the fact that you can tip root it, leads me to suspect you likely have a floricane. But it does not exclude primocanes as far as I’m aware.
I have never tried to tip-root a primocane Rubus. They usually make plenty of shoots from the ground to transplant. And most primocanes don’t have flexible shoots that easily bend to the ground.
Interesting. I always assumed you just cut off the old cane because it’s “upside down“ and wouldn’t grow properly once detached from the mother plant.
Yes - Floricane varieties. Bristol and Jewel.
it being “upside down” doesen’t seem to matter much.
Sometimes a cutting will let the tip rooted shoot die though. But for me 9/10 times the upside down part from last year fruits in the year of transplanting.
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This is one of my mystery blacks that tip rooted on it’s own last fall. There are a couple of heritage reds in there too (on the right and left) and some pretty big root shoots developing already too… but in the middle the black. I dug it up this spring and moved it to a new location. It has grown well… tipped it at top trellis wire and it has sprawled all over. Most of that horizontal growth you see in there is that one mystery black from tip root… Blacks are quite unruly… compared to my reds and golds.
It sure looks like it is going to be ready to fruit next spring to me and I think I will have to thin it out some too.
My top wire is at 48".
TNHunter
Not sure how early you can force tip-rooting of caneberries. Here, the canes do not form the club-ends that readily root on soil contact until Sept-Oct.
Ok. Worth keeping in mind. Should I yank them back out of the dirt for now?
Everything I’m reading says just do it in “late summer“ or “fall“ but is otherwise non-specific.
I’ve never tried tip-rooting in summer or early fall, perhaps burying the summer tips induces premature root growth.
Here it seems that various caneberries, if watered regularly, put all their energy into increasing length of main cane and laterals. In October this growth screeches to a halt and the little club-ends and primo-roots form. Those don’t require burying, just soil contact.
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My primocane Niwot tip-roots freely. If you were working with a primocane, I think you could get a modest crop next year. With a floracane, I’d assume a good crop in two years.
In my experience the tips root as soon as they are long enough to touch the ground. I always propagate my caneberries during summer because fall isn’t really growing season where I’m at.
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Caneberries are usually green well into November here.
Black raspberries propagate like blackberries. The canes are not strong enough to support themselves in an erect position, so the canes bend over and the tips touch the soil, where they take root. Red raspberries propagate by root sucker. Normally their cane tips never touch soil. Black raspberry plants rooted this year should definitely fruit in 2023.
Floricanes are simply primocanes that have had some of the previous year’s growth trimmed off.
A primocane will become a floricane the following year regardless of trimming or pruning method.
To clarify, will black raspberries grow new canes from the root each year, as regular raspberries, or are they supposed to be allowed to hang and root into the ground from the tip?
(I have my black raspberry canes supported on stakes and cut the top off of them because they were getting so large…)
@YumYumTrees
Yes new shoots will grow from the root crown each year.
It’s common to top them at the desired height ,allowing side branches to form , these branches are usually pruned in the dormant season to1-2ft lengths .
They will root where the tips touch the ground , but these should be moved to keep the patch from getting too crowded.
Thanks. Ive gotten significant side branching on the black raspberries compared to regular raspberries.
I cut and moved some today. One in a 6” pot was almost rootbound. The ones in the ground also has good rootballs. In case these don’t make it, I have more still attached to the parent plants.
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little late reply, sorry.
Raspberry (and the whole rubus) nomenclature can be quite confusing and often misused by sellers.
Primocane = the shoot that grew from the roots this year. basically new growth from the ground.
Floricane = the primocane 1 year later.
So basically shoot that grew this year <1 year old = primocane
Shoot that grew last year >1 year old = floricane.
Where it can become confusing.
Some varieties/species/sub-species within the Rubus family fruit on primocanes (and often also on floricanes)
And some “only” fruit on floricanes.
We should call these primocane fruiting and floricane fruiting varieties.
However often this gets shortend to just primocane and floricane.
And thus we get the same term used for
-denoting how old a shoot is when pruning
-genetic fruiting property of a variety.
It is true that most primocane (fruiting varieties) will bear fruit the next year. (mostly on buds below the fruit bearing top (that already fruited) of the primocane
But there is a distinct difference between primocane (fruiting varieties) and floricane (fruiting varieties)
Floricane (fruiting varieties) bear on (usually longer and leafed) side branches on 1+ year old shoots. (shoot grows, then goes dormant, then when it wakes up it makes side shoots and fruits). The canes/shoots usually are longer and more bendable and often need to be tied to something. (they also easily tip root if you let them bend/arch to the ground)
Floricanes usually make new shoots from the root crown. And thus all shoots usually come from a single spot. Tip root for propegation.
So primocane (fruiting varieties) can be made to behave like a floricane in the 2e year. But floricanes generally won’t behave like primocanes.
The primocanes are usually less bendable and thicker. More like canes and less like climbing shoots.
Primocanes often make new shoots from the roots. This can also happen multiple feet or even meters away from the mother plant.
Dig up the newly sprouting plants for propegation.
Also when pruning back or leaving a primocane shoot to acts as a floricane in the 2e year. It usually bears fruit much earlier in the season.
To make it more confusing, floricane rasphberry’s are often called “summer raspberry’s”. (although they can also fruit in fall/ early summer)
And primocane rasphberry’s are often called “fall rasphberry’s” or “everbearing rasphberry’s” Even though they can also fruit in spring (usualy on floricanes) or summer and fall (primocanes)
As far as i know.
Rasphberry’s have varieties that are
-primocane fruiting: like Autumn Bliss, Marosa, fallgold, caroline, heritage etc)
-floricane fruiting: like golden everest, tulameen, malling promise, prelude, nova, killarney
Blackberry’s
-mostly floricane fruiting
-newly introduced primocane (fruiting)
black raspberry’s (Rubus occidentalis)
-floricane fruiting, as far as i know. in the EU they are more rare. Don’t know if there are primocanes in US.
most/all blackberry/rasphberry hybrids
-floricane fruiting (like loganberry, tayberry, boysenberry etc)
Japanese wineberry’s
-floricane fruiting
if you cut off all (new =primocanes) of a floricane fruiting variety. You get no fruit next year. (or this year if pruning in spring)
if you cut off all (new =primocanes) of a primocane fruiting variety. You won’t get an early (spring/early summer) harvest of your plant. But the new shoots will still fruit in summer/fall.
If you leave all primocanes on a primocane fruiting variety. You tend to have a larger crop in spring/early summer and less new shoots and thus a smaller summer/fall crop. This also seems to weaken the plants a bit.
The floricanes usually die out automatically after fruiting. (for both floricane fruiting and primocane fruiting varieties)
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