Cityman, If Triazicide works against PC anywhere it should work everywhere so I really don’t know what the problem is for you as PC is as tough as anything outside of BMSB.
In NY, Avaunt is not restricted- it is merely labeled only for agricultural use, which means you’re supposed to sell some produce. It is a dry product that probably has decent shelf life but is expensive and only comes in big batches.
Maybe you folks should start an underground pesticide COOP so you can split up batches. As long as it is shipped in a really strong container with a computer printed label it probably isn’t THAT illegal and not particularly dangerous.
Appleseed’s option of Imidan is probably a better bet, because I’m certain of its’ long shelf life and it is relatively cheap. Only problem is if you have queasy neighbors because of its’ intense odor. “I love the smell of Imidan in the morning. Smells like victory”. Just don’t open those packets indoors and know which way the wind is blowing before cutting one open.
Having seen posts on this thread and on the current thread about mixing Imidan and Triazicide, I am clearly not the only one having problems with triazacide’s effectiveness. I guess I fell like my problem is worse than others because I didn’t used to see many people saying it failed them. Also, I see people talking about “several” or even “many” fruits getting hit by PC/OFM. On my trees, basically overnight, every single fruit on every single tree will have multiple bit locations. Same thing with the tips of my peach tree. I’ve seen people say dying (or “flagging”) tips isn’t that big a deal since they usually come back and it doesn’t involve all that many. On my peach trees, I would challenge you to find one single tip of a single limb or branch or twig that hasn’t been killed and died. At least 95% for sure. This is always within 10 days or less of my spraying triazacide to the point where it runs off my trees. I even try to spray from top AND bottom so I get both sides of all leaves. But a few things have my wondering: 1) The heat is often very, very hot here in the south when I’m spraying, so that could be an issue. 2) I say I use fresh product, but the first year I bought it very early in spring so it could have been from previous year. Same could be true both years…its shameful that they don’t put dates on bottles. 3) I haven’t been using a sticker. I read somewhere that adding some dishwashing soap would help but have learned since it probably doesn’t. 4) I’m not always great about respraying after each rain. Since I know I’ll be spraying every 10 days I tend to just wait until next scheduled 10 day spray. So if it rains of day 3 my trees basically go unprotected for 7 days…which can be a lifetime on my place. These are the only reasons I can think of why my experience seems to be worse than others at different locations.
If I can find a good alternative, I will ditch it in a heart beat. The product you mentioned before are all for commercial growers, not available for people like us, right?
Sara, some agricultural chemicals are not restricted or are only on a state by state basis. Imidan can be purchased via USPS according to applenut. His source is something like Keystone, but you have to be pretty dedicated to use the stuff because it is a nasty dusty powder that is in thin water soluble bags intended to throw right into the tank and make 100 gallons of spray material.
Avaunt is not restricted but is classified for agricultural use only, meaning you are supposed to use it to produce fruit for sale.
There is a pretty good neonic for sale at a very high price that is packaged for home use. It probably isn’t great for plum curculio but would work for everything else and at least provide adequate protection from PC. Olpea know’s its name.
There are mail-order sellers who don’t pay attention to your location, although they will have a “wink-wink” disclaimer that licencing is your responsibility.
@Sara_in_philly, here is a link to the thread I mentioned which contains several recommendations of products some people suggested to me as being superior. Its not 100% clear to me which are available only to commercial growers and which might be ordered as Richard suggests (in his helpful post above). Also includes some information on stickers.
Rich: Your thoughts are that this Tempo is step up from Triazacide? Also it appears to be a liquid, the plastic Imidan pouches didn’t work for me, never mind the odor.
If you are getting really good control, you could use the lowest rate on the label and possibly extend the spray intervals. That said, I don’t think you’dt want to reduce your fungicide program to the point brown rot starts to take a significant portion of your fruit. There is the thought that if you have eliminated your previous fungus issue with a low impact spray program, maybe there is little reason to change? Sort of like, if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.
In terms of the Triazicide discussion. I will note it has been around for a lot of years. I recall on the old fruit forum when people first started using Triazicide, there were some good reviews. People who had battled PC and other major pests were finally getting harvestable fruit. However, as Cityman mentioned, the last few years I have seen quite a few complaints Triazicide is not working. My thought is still that the product has a short shelf life and degrades on the shelf, or in a hot warehouse, but perhaps there is something else. I only know there are more complaints nowadays than should be expected IMO.
Yes, it’s basically Assail repackaged for backyard growers. It used to be really expensive, but I found a link where it appears to be cheap, but Ortho probably just reduced the active ingredient. Still, if people are interested, here is a link.
I know Assail (same a.i.) is very effective for most tree fruit pests, but I have no idea if the Ortho product uses the same rate of active ingredient.
The Assail labels I read came in 30% SG and 70% WP active ingredient. The Ortho home product liquid concentrate contains. 0.5% of the same.
The Ortho label instructs use at 1.5 oz per gal. for all listed pests and plants. Assail instructions vary the amount to be used per acre depending on the crop and targeted pests, and gives a range for each.
Someone who likes analyzing numbers more than I do could probably use the information provided in the Assail label to compare actual application rates.
I was going to reply that I would bet anything that it did not contain anywhere near the same amount of active ingredient.
I was about to look it up when I scrolled down and read Muddy’s comment.
Muddy, you beat me to it.
That’s the whole problem with this OTC stuff…way, way lower concentrations for way more money per active ingredient amount. Why the heck they just don’t sell a smaller more concentrated bottle is beyond me. Actually it’s not beyond me, they want Harry homeowner to think he’s getting a great deal when really he’s getting the shaft. Plus small bottles don’t leave enough room on the bottle for attractive advertising.
All the discarded plastic is an environmental disaster in and of itself.
Big problem I see with Assail is the gigantic quantity you have to purchase, and the high cost that goes along with that. This is however pretty much the case with all the good stuff.
Another question is shelf life.
Other questions would the usual questions and issues surrounding any insecticide. It does sound pretty good though, I read through the label a bit. The 4 lb. bottle will treat nearly 30 acres of trees at the lower rate.
I really think for a lot of folks Imidan is probably the best bet when it comes to cost, shelf life and fairly broad control. It stinks something awful though and from me that should say something as I actually like the smell of Malathion and most people detest it.
I’ve read a lot about insecticides and none of them are perfect. All have an issue, all seem to have areas of weakness in one way or another
Imidan isn’t cheap, but it’s way cheaper than most and gallon for gallon cheaper than any OTC spray and yet has serious power.
I hope one of you can find an effective product that is reasonably priced, keeps well, has broad spectrum control, listed for various fruit types and won’t have the EPA descending upon our homes if we spray a bit of it.
I’m too lazy to do all the math right now, but I feel very confident 1.5 oz. of this stuff will produce a concentrate much, much lower than Assails lower rate would. I haven’t looked that up, but that’s how it always is. Let’s just assume it somehow does though.
Assuming a 100 gal. per acre spray (Olpea correct me if that’s an incorrect assumption) then to spray 30 acres (roughly what the 4 lb. Assail will treat…again roughly) then you would need to purchase 150 bottles of it.
Again these are crude off the top of my head numbers and I’m very tired from a 12 hour shift.
150 X $15 = $2,250.00 Versus Assail at $370
Again, this is assuming that Ortho’s final mixture is equivalent to Assails lower rate, which I very, very much doubt. In fact, I’d be shocked if it was even close.
Lamenting the lack of products packaged for the backyard grower is futile. There are many factors at play here but every home grower has to deal with these issues the same way they deal with every other problem in trying to grow tree fruit. At least home growers don’t have to produce ample quantities of absolutely pristine fruit almost every season to hold onto the farm.
If a home grower violates the law by exceeding the concentration recommended on the label to make it sufficient to control their pests there is virtually no chance they will be punished for the violation.
If you do the math and you are running by a per acre unit of active ingredient for agricultural applications you usually can figure about 40% of that amount will make 100 gallons of dilute spray. Easy to divide that by 100 to calculate a per gallon ratio and from their you can calculate how much of the dilute homeowners version you have to use to get similar protection.
If you go on-line you can find the labels for all the registered pesticides used for commercial fruit production where this information will be held.
If the result is that it costs too damn much to be worth it, there’s not much to be done about that.
I used Assail as my only pesticide protection against PC and the rest one season at a couple of sites including my own. I got fairly good protection from it.
Does it violate any laws if a commercial grower “gives” a backyard grower a little of those potent stuff?
If not, maybe we can find a nearby orchard willing to do that.
Or like Alan suggested we home growers can pull together…
With only 4 peach, 2 plum and 2 pear, the quantity of commercial package is too much for me anyway. I only need to mix 10 gallon for each spray. And I am not ready to try the stinky imidan yet? Just how bad is the imidan smell?
Sara, the smell is pretty rough. I triple zip lock bag it and can still smell the stuff when I walk into my garden shed where it is kept. You will also need a good respirator and rubber gloves, the dust is so fine, it seems to go everywhere. For your small orchard the Ortho spray Olpea mentioned may be the way to go.
Sara, the smell barely bothers me beyond the aggravation of other folks being convinced I’m poisoning them when they smell it. Woman are generally tougher about these things than men, IMO. Certainly more pleasant than cleaning up after a child with stomach flu (let’s face the truth, woman still do most of this type work).
Don’t store it in ziplocks. Use a solid container with a gasket- so much easier to work with when you need to measure a batch and much more secure. Old metal ammo cans from an army surplus store are perfect but a good plastic food storage container would be adequate. Keep it in a locked cabinet.
You are right about the potential of having a commercial grower help you out, but you need to have an established relationship with that person most likely.
I know of a sprayer who is not licensed that buys Asana in small quantities from an employee at an ag chem source that also does applications on a commercial scale for huge corn fields and the like. The employee probably siphons off some from the spraying jobs to make a little extra cash.
Of course, getting a little from a farmer is a different deal but I have a friend who is a commercial grower that sometimes gives me some in a pinch.
Perhaps better for your needs than Immidan is Avaunt. No smell and very effective against a wide range of pests, including plum curc. Only problem is it takes less than an ounce for 25 gallons of mix. You’d need a gram scale for sure.
I wasn’t very clear in my previous post. I knew Ortho didn’t contain near the amount of active ingredient per bottle, I just didn’t know if the label allowed the same amount of a.i. per acre (or per tree).
I crunched some numbers and it looks to me the Ortho product is applied at roughly the same rate (the lower rate) as the commercial counterpart Assail.
I’ll use peaches as an example. The Assail label uses a range of b/t 5.3 ounces and 8 ounces per acre. Assuming trees are planted at 100 trees/acre (and full grown) that would mean each tree would receive roughly 0.0159 ounces of a.i. (acetamiprid) per tree at the lower 5.3 ounce per acre rate with Assail 30 SG. (5.3 oz divided by 100 trees X 30% a.i.)
Using the Ortho product at 1.5 oz. per gallon of spray mix would equal an active ingredient of 0.0075 oz. of a.i. (acetamiprid) per gallon of spray solution. (1.5 oz. X 0.5% a.i.)
That would mean to get the commmercial rate of 0.0159 ounces of a.i. per tree, one would have to use 2.12 gallons of spray solution of the Ortho product per tree (0.0159 oz. of a.i. per tree [for commercial rate] divided by 0.0075 oz. of a.i. per gallon of spray solution for the Ortho spray).
Two gallons of spray for the Ortho sounds reasonable to me for a full sized peach tree.
I agree the cost is quite high for the Ortho. At the 2.12 gallon of spray per tree rate, that would take 3.18 ounces of the Ortho concentrate (2.12 gal. X 1.5 ounces/gal. of Ortho concentrate) which means each 32 oz. bottle of Ortho would treat roughly 10 trees with one application. The cost is $15 per bottle which means each tree would cost $1.50 per treatment.
One 64 oz. bottle of Assail would treat roughly 1200 trees with one application (64 oz. bottle divided by 5.3 oz/acre rate X 100 trees/acre). Assuming $370 per bottle, that would cost about $0.31 per tree.
Thank you pointing out the price of Assail Appleseed. I had no idea it was that expensive. The last time I bought Assail was last year and it was less than $200/bottle then. When I first saw the $370 price you listed, I thought it had to be a mistake, but I looked it up in a 2015 catalog, and sure enough it has almost doubled in price in a year. I’ve seen this happen before. Most of the time it’s due to some temporary shortage and the pesticide comes back down in price after a year or two, but sometimes not.
Funny, I easily cover a full sized peach tree to the dripping point with under a gallon of spray. I’ve noticed that the amount of spray I use tends to be much less than the big tree care companies, that use more powerful sprayers, for the same amount of coverage, but I’m surprised that I use half of what you use, Olpea.
Actually, I could probably cover 75 mature peach trees with one 25 gallon tank- certainly 50.
There is a site I manage with two separate orchards, each with over 50 mature (14-18 year old) trees. The sites have mostly apples on 111, plums, on myro, cherries on a free standing Geisla or Mazzard and Apricots, peaches, pears and nectarines on full sized root stocks. They still require only 25 gallons for each orchard to get full coverage.
I have a lot of Macintosh and Macoun in one of the two orchards and have never had more than a trace of scab, or any important insect damage in 14 years of management, so the coverage must be adequate. Some years I lose about a third of the Euro plums to late PC.
Anymore, I’m reluctant to convert Ag spray rates to backyard because there is such a wide variation in the amount of spray used per tree. I suppose what really matters is that the amount of a.i. per tree (or land area) matches the label.
I’ve mentioned this before, but for my airblast I use 100 gal. acre, or 1 gal./tree. My backyard sprayer takes more spray than that, so I reduce the amount of pesticide per gallon of spray solution accordingly.
Thanks much for this info, Ortho sounds like a decent product for homeowners. I have various insecticides for now, but will switch to that product in the future.
With the commercial products the mixing rates are confusing converting the per acre numbers.
I have a questions about CuPRO 5000 Fungicide. It is a Kocide generic.
Yet not listed for fruit? It is Copper Hydroxide 61.3%. I thought about using this product on fruit, but am not sure of application rates, and why it is not rated for fruit? Probably cannot sell OTC if it was? Only listed for ornamentals.
Kocide 3000 is 46.1% and you use 4.5 pounds per acre.
For some shrub fruit you use a rate 1.75 pounds.
I’m going to have to ask my math genius wife to figure rates out per gallon!
For different applications a rate for 1 pound would be useful to calcuate lower amounts for non-dormant sprays. OK, my head hurts now.
A mention of 400 gallons per acre of dilute solution for fruit trees. and also 150 gallons for small fruit, man this stuff is not easy to figure out.