When you say you eat them as NAs, do you mean that you eat them all while still firm?
I thought bezoars were only a concern if eating persimmons while still astringent. I routinely eat the skin.
I was not replying to your comments. I was making a more generic statement about the dozens of posters I have seen in a wide variety of fruit groups through the years who have just blindly stated that all NAs are the same and that astringents are superior to NAs. And most of them had very little experience with either type of persimmon.
Looks like you still need to try Suruga though!
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I typically eat most NAs while firm, although occasionally I will let one soften a little.
Tannin levels in persimmon skin don’t change nearly as much as tannin levels in the flesh as the fruit ripens/ages. Eating the skin occasionally is probably not going to cause any problems but it’s not a good habit to get into.
“Persimmons have been identified
as a particular high-risk food for causing bezoars,
due to a persimmon skin tannin (phlobatannin) that
has a strong protein binding capacity and coagulates
in dilute acid. A persimmon phytobezoar is also
known as a diospyrobezoar.1 R. Moriel et al. noted
a dramatic increase in incidence in 1982 in Israel,
which correlated with an increase in persimmon
sales in the country; 68 patients presenting to one
of the 12 hospitals during a 6 month period all
reported a history of persimmon intake.”
NUTRITION ISSUES IN GASTROENTEROLOGY
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As a Gastroenterology nurse I may need to take note of that…… 
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I don’t think the info on it will keep me from eating persimmon skins in the future but I might be more cautious about which ones and how many I eat!
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Suruga was the 1st release (that I’m aware of) from the Japanese breeding program. Apart from ripening late, it reportedly tends to crack. Have you observed this?
Maekawa is a bud sport of Jiro, ripening earlier. Does it really taste much better than Jiro?
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It does look like Suruga is the one to try. Thanks for sharing your recommendations. How much later is Suruga than Fuyu or Jiro?
When I originally purchased and planted my D. kaki trees, I had at least one that ended up being mislabeled. It’s easy to tell it’s a mistake when the cultivar is supposed to be non-astringent and ends up being astringent, but when it comes to the PCNA types, it’d be hard to distinguish between them without a lot more experience than I have. Maybe that’s part of the problem - it’s too easy to pass off one PCNA as another to persimmon novices like me. Maybe I really just have a half dozen Jiro trees.
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Thanks for this heads up on persimmon skin and bezoars. Had never heard of it. Will avoid persimmon skin in future. Good article:https://med.virginia.edu/ginutrition/wp-content/uploads/sites/199/2021/03/Bezoars-Mrach-2021.pdf
Reminds me of an owl pellet.
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This doesn’t exactly answer your question but at the Japanese breeding station, ripening ranges from early October (Soshu) to late November (Yubeni). Suruga ripens in mid-November, whereas Izu – a variety that some forum members grow in the U.S. – is mid-October. FYI Taishu ripens in early November.
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You are the first person I ever remember using “NA” as a label for persimmon type. So I am wondering if you had interpreted PCNA comments in the past as “NA”. None of the scientific papers I have seen use NA either, it is always PCNA, PVNA, PCA, or PCNA. That makes sense to me as the PCNA types are very different from the PVNA types.
PCNA is a relatively recent breeding phenomenon (from Japan) and the genetics seem to be a lot closer on those as a whole of that reason. There are probably some PCNAs that are more different than others, but the half a dozen or so varieties I tried had little difference.
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Thanks @jrd51, that’s helpful info. Of those, I do grow Izu and it has ripened fruit for me in late Sept/early Oct, so I’d probably be able to ripen Suruga here in Z7B NC as well.
@castanea the video you shared of Kuroama shows the dark flesh, so I’m assuming it’s a PVNA, right? Looks tasty!
I hope we’ll have the option to grow newer Japanese cultivars like Kuroama and Taishu before too long. I’m sure there’s a lot more variety than most of us growing them here in the US are aware of.
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@scottfsmith —. I have to disagree. For many years there has been a 2 x 2 classification scheme PC vs PV and A vs NA, so that gives PCA, PCNA, PVA, and PVNA. @castanea isn’t wrong to lump PCNA and PVNA into a larger NA category.
P.s. PCNAs have been recognized (not named as such) since the 1600s with the discover of Gosho. The category is small in number but it has attracted lots of attention since WWII.
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I’m not disagreeing with the 2x2 grid, I’m just saying that when varieties are labeled it is always invariably with the 4-way scheme.
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Yeah, that’s true. This is probably because the full label conveys good information. The mechanism creating non-astringency varies between the PC and PV types. PCNAs stop producing tannins early. PVNAs keep producing tannins but then the seeds produce ethanol that becomes acetaldehyde, which renders the tannins insoluble. So it can be misleading to lump them together.
Back to the question of flavor – among the PCNAs, I’ve tasted only IKKJ and Fuyu; but the genetic diversity of PCNAs is so minimal that I’d expect them to all taste pretty much the same. The PVAs/PVNAs have more genetic diversity, and I’d expect more variable taste.
I’m guessing that the diversity of flavor tracks the diversity of the genome generally. There must be 6 recessive PCNA genes to produce the PCNA phenotype. The only way to get 6 identical genes in a variety is through intense in-breeding. On the other hand, the PVNA genes seem (?) to be additive, so it may be easier for PVNA x PCA crosses to produce new PVA/PVNA hybrids.
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I’ve seen conflicting information on whether Kuroama is PVNA. I keep seeing references to “special growing techniques” which eliminate astringency. I have no idea what that means.
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I have been trying to simplify the discussion but it seems to have complicated it instead.
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Suruga is 4-6 weeks later on average in the California central valley. It does vary from year to year. Sometimes it can be longer than 6 weeks.
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I don’t know, but I’ll tell you how to figure it out – if you can grow the fruit well-seeded. PVA seeds produce ethanol but in small amounts that only partly eliminate astringency in the immediate vicinity of the seeds. That’s where you’ll see brown discoloration. You need to wait until they are soft for complete de-astringency. PVNA seeds produce ethanol in large enough amounts to eliminate astringency throughout the fruit. You’ll see brown discoloration throughout. You can reportedly eat these fruit while still firm.
This description from a Japanese travel site may explain the “special growing conditions” used for Kuroama persimmons. I believe Kuroama is the trade name given to persimmons from the Kinokawa region that are subjected to this treatment. The variety of persimmon used is Shibugaki.
“Last but not least: the"drunken kaki" of Kinokawa
If this is not enough of kaki lingo yet, then let’s take the Shibugaki talk one step further.
So, we can dry them to get Hoshigaki or half-dry them to get Ampo kaki. Yet, there is one more way to break down the tannin and turn Shibugaki edible, which is alcohol!
We were told that traditionally Shibugaki were put in a plastic bag after many holes were poked into the fruits. Then Shochu was added and the bag was put in the refrigerator for a few days. The alcohol speeds up the softening of the fruit’s flesh and makes it sweet.
In the Kinokawa area of Wakayama Prefecture this alcohol method has been taken to the next level to produce the “Kinokawa Kaki”, a new way of marketing the drunk persimmon.
Believe it or not, the Shibugaki fruit is soaked in alcohol while still hanging on the tree! Can you believe it! A bag that contains alcohol is put around the fruit for over 20 hours to take out the astringency. Then the alcohol bag is removed yet the fruit remains covered with a vinyl bag until the fruit is ripe and can be harvested.
Since this is a lot of work, the production volume of Kinokawa Kaki is small. Due to its rarity, these fruits fetch a high price. They are harvested in November, which would be the season to try and buy some.”
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If a persimmon needs exogenous ethanol, then it is not producing endogenous ethanol and is not PVNA.