I’m pretty much in agreement on that. And, it is not too different for the PCAs. The main downsides to look out for are stringiness, too-late ripening, lack of hardiness, pumpkin-taste, and small size. Great Wall for example is stringy, small and pumpkin-tasting… I removed it. The pumpkin taste you get when the flesh is not completely clear when ripe, like how pumpkin flesh is; it is not consistent and can vary from year to year. I don’t like that so much. Beyond these criteria there still are subtle flavor and brix differences but they are not such a big deal to me. Overall my favorite PCAs have been Hachiya and Saijo, but Hachiya is only borderline hardy for me. My first tree lasted 15 years and my second one is going to be in production in a few years.
The PVNA I don’t have a lot of data on, but Chocolate is the only real winner for me there. Hyakume is too late ripening, and Maru is too small.
@scottssmith – Re PCNAs, this seems to be the consensus, so I don’t feel motivated to experiment far beyond IKKJ. Except – Soshu is supposed to be extra early. I’m gonna try Cardinal on the assumption (!?!) that it is Soshu. I guess I’ll learn whether it is cold hardy.
I am considering adding persimmons in the next year or two (new orchard location).
I am in the South East (TN) Zone 7a.
I have access to lots of wild American persimmons and I love to forage… so I think I may want to try planting perhaps 2-3 non-astringent varieties…
So what I really want to know from all this good information that you are all contributing too is…
What are the Top 5 non astringent varieties for the South East (based on board member recommendations for what has worked best, tasted best in their location).
The best tasting persimmon in California or the PNW… may not even grow here… that would be my luck.
I am sure that I am not the only one reading this thread, and thinking like this. Hundreds, possibly thousands of other folks (that live all over the USA, and over seas) are very likely reading this and hoping to find out what will work best, taste best, produce best, in their location.
A Summary at the end that gives those kinds of details would be very much appreciated by me, and no telling how many other folks.
You’re in Zone 7a, where average winter lows are supposedly 0 to +5 F. Presumably 1 year in 5 is materially worse. Those temperatures will kill many persimmon varieties. So IMO, your top priority has to be cold tolerance.
I’ve had good success here with Ichi Ki Kei Jiro. I’m borderline 6B/7A, and the 7-year old trees have definitely endured -3 to -5 F, though not within the last few years.
Apart from simple cold tolerance, it also helps to have a variety that breaks bud late. This makes it less susceptible to damage from late season frosts. For example, we had a severe frost in 2020 on May 9. IKKJ is reportedly late to break dormancy, though I have no others to compare. My own trees did not suffer in 2020.
Tam Kam (Korean) and Chinebuli (Romanian) are reportedly cold tolerant, but I’m cautious because they must be synonyms (or at least bud sports) of older Japanese names.
The next key trait is early ripening. Izu, Soshu, Maekawa Jiro are reportedly quite early – earlier than IKKJ – but likely not as cold hardy. IKKJ is well ripened here by early November. It should be earlier for you given your inland location, which implies a longer growing season.
Thanks very much @jrd51 for speaking to my specific situation… appreciate it much.
I have a Book of notes going… titled My Try Next Time list (based on recommendations that I am getting here). I am going to use this to determine what to plant in my new orchard, new home site… over the next year or two.
On my Persimmon page… I had these notes made (already)… Per Dennis D - Giant Fuyu His Fav (and that may have been his Fav non astringent in the post I read - I was focused on non-astringent varieties), 15-20 ft high/wide tree…and that there is a dwarf version Ichi-Ki-Kei-Jiro very similar but dwarf.
Good to see you recommending one that was already on my list. I made note of that.
Starks has the dwarf version Ichi-Ki-Kei-Jiro… and they say Self Pollinating… Zone 6-9…, mature size 8-10 ft tree… 4 star rating, and here is part of their description.
Our hardiest Asian persimmon. The name translates to “first life from Jiro”. This bountiful bearer features medium-large, non-astringent fruit that is sweet even when picked firm! Fruit is round to oblate. Seedless.Heat-tolerant. Ripens in September to October.
Boldness applied to some words in there I find atractive.
Just to clarify: I think there is only one version of IKKJ, which is naturally dwarfish. My trees are ~10’ high. The trees are parthenocarpic, not self-pollinating; so yes, there is seedless fruit. Hardiness to Z6 may be a stretch; I’d guess that Z6B is the limit. I don’t think you should plant it in Z6A, where the average winter low is -10 to -5 F and presumably some winters are worse. The timing of ripening depends on growing conditions. It ripens here ~10/15-11/15.
I have Figs and Raspberries ripening from Late August to Late November normally… would be ideal if persimmons ripened even later. I do have a few American Persimmon trees nearby that hold fruit until December… and some that ripen and drop in Oct, Nov. I may have to add a Paw Paw or two in there too for extra good fall coverage.
I believe Giboshi has a bit of dwarfing in it but the way I control mine is by pruning to 7 or 8 feet in winter and sometimes in summer. Every year or it will get away from you. Too hard to pick fruit way up high.
The best tasting persimmons in California will grow in your location and should do well, but as noted by jrd51, sooner or later they will probably be damaged or killed by an abnormally cold winter. Suruga ripens very late and I don’t know whether it would ripen fully for you.
As for anyone who might tell you that all the NA’s are the same, they are absolutely not the same. What tends to happen is that people buy Fuyo or Jiro at a market and assume that is how they are supposed to taste. It isn’t. Or they grow Fuyu or Jiro and pick them way too early and think that’s how they’re supposed to taste. It isn’t. If someone has not grown their own NA’s for at least a few years and figured out when to pick them, or picked fruit from a grower who knows exactly when to pick the fruit, their opinion about NA’s means little. If they haven’t compared the BEST California grown NA’s (and that does NOT include Fuyu, Jiro, Izu, Hana Fuyu or Giant Fuyu), they’re not qualified to give you an opinion about the best NA’s nor to compare the best NA’s to the best astringents.
Below are NA’s grown in California. They are all different and they are all superb. They are better than any astringent persimmon I have ever tasted.
Suruga
California Maru
Coffecake (Nishimura Wase)
Maekawa
Zenji Maru
There are also at least half dozen other local NA persimmon cultivars in California that are superb, but they are not widely known and not commercially sold.
I’ve only had Saijo ripen over the last 2 seasons (zone 6b). In both seasons, it ripened around November. The ones that had not completely ripened made a less intensely sweet, but, really good Hoshigaki.
I have 17 persimmon trees planted, but only 4 are currently producing. Of the ones that are producing, my favorites in order are Nikita’s Gift, Prok, Saijo, and Hachiya. My taste preference leans toward the American or hybrid varieties. Of course that may change in the future. But as of now the hybrid and American varieties’ complex flavors are far superior to the Asian cultivars I’ve tried.
can you tell me the earliest asian persimmons to ripen for you?
so far you mention Miss Kim, Ichi Ki Kei Jiro, and Nishimura Wase ripens earlier than saijo? any others you can mention?
It is interesting that occasionally I hear folks sing the praises of Honan Red, but it hasn’t really been mentioned by anybody in this thread. Anyone grow it and have thoughts on when it ripens and how it compares to the Giboshi, Saijo, Giombo, Haychiya crowd?
The order of ripening on those was Nishimura Wase, IKKJ, then Miss Kim. When I say ripened, I mean fully colored. Nothing else that fruited this year ripened before Saijo. Jiro and Tipo had to be picked with Saijo but there was still the slightest bit of green on them, but maybe less green than Saijo. Matsumoto Wase Fuyu ripened around mid-October previously here, but my tree isn’t doing well and didn’t fruit this year.
I look forward to trying pollinated PVNAs - I just planted a few of those, but it will be at least a few years.
I was referring to PCNAs - Fuyu, Jiro, Tam Kam, Maekawa Jiro, Izu, and Wase Fuyu are the ones I’ve grown and tasted. They were all better than any Fuyus I’ve bought in a grocery store, and my wife and children prefer them to the PCAs because of the firm, crispy texture. But in terms of flavor and texture, they’ve all been about the same to me.
This may seem like a silly question, but does anyone eat astringent persimmon skin with the fruit? I imagine you can eat non-astringent persimmon skin without any harmful side effects?
I have. It depends on the consistency and if it’s really leathery I’ll leave the skin. I grew up eating small Americans and we would bite into them and spit out the seeds. So I guess I’m saying I didn’t know not to eat the skin. Now that I’ve had astringent Asians occasionally on the really ripe ones I’ll scoop out the flesh with a spoon and leave the skin. But often I eat the skin and I’ve never had a problem. I also slice my eurekas to dry with the skin on and dry them unpeeled.
I never said the cultivars I listed were PCNAs (or PVNAs for that matter) because such a distinction had no relevance to my post. This thread, and my response, is about the best persimmons for eating. All the cultivars I listed are eaten as NAs. Whether a NA persimmon is PCNA or PVNA doesn’t effect anything I’ve said. But aside from that, Suruga and Maekawa are not PVNAs. They are both PCNAs.
And yes, I think that you’re right that some of the posts in this thread have treated PCNAs and PVNAs differently, but I was not responding to any of those specific posts. I was making a more general comment about variability in all NAs, because many people who have posted about persimmons, here and elsewhere, for many years, have tended to assert that NAs as a group are less variable than astringents as a group, and that NAs as a group are inferior to astringents as a group. That doesn’t match my experience at all.
