@NativBill1 … 100-46 is tempting me for sure… but I already have a bunch of mid and late season ripening persimmons. Americans and Hybrids.
H63A is tempting me too… same problem…
May have to add those by graft.
Appreciate the ripening details.
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Saw this on youtube last night…
Persimmon pudding cake… looks good.
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Persimmon pudding also fabulous with hard sauce on it! Like you’d put on a proper plum pudding.
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I’ve dehydrated D.v.s… just kinda squash them flat, seeds & all (it’s a PITA trying to remove them all) … just be careful not to break a tooth on one while eating them!
I’ve made persimmon fruit leather with pulp - easy to do in the dehydrator or in the oven, overnight at 170F.
‘Rosseyanka’ fruits, gathered while still fairly firm but well-colored, can be sliced and dehydrated, and astringency disappears in the process. It helps that most Rosseyanka fruits are seedless or only contain a single seed.
I routinely freeze back some pulp every fall for making ‘persimmon pudding’
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@Lucky_P …
I am considering adding Early Jewell… H-118…
Per Cliff it produces large high quality fruit,very early to ripen (August?)
I found a pic that Cliff posted and wow it was large.
He also says it produces seedless persimmons (south of Ohio river) because it is a 90 Chromosome persimmon.
That would be ideal for dehydrating or making fruit leather. No seeds to remove and large fruit.
I am thinking yes… on adding H-118.
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Frozen whole persimmon as an ice cube for your beverage of choice!
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I wouldn’t count on the no seeds part. Those 90/60 chromosome distribution maps aren’t really accurate. I’m supposed to be in 60 chromosome land, but my 100-46 had seeds last year and I didn’t have any pollinators on my property or any other trees nearby that I knew of. There must be some wild 90-chromosome tree with male flowers within bee distance of me, even though the map would tell you I’m in a 60-chromosome only range.
Given the size and quality of the fruit on your sister’s tree, that is most likely a 90 chromosome tree. If you see seeds in the fruit, there are likely to be 90 chromosome males around, so pretty much any of the improved types you might grow would have seeds. Now if the fruit on her tree are seedless, that would be a good sign to get seedless fruit from the American persimmons you are grafting. Or if you just happen to be in a pocket that is far enough away from any 90-chromosome trees with male flowers, you could get lucky as well.
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The named varieties do have seeds, but they are not packed with them like the wilds. Seems wrong that they advertise seedless, when very few cases will that be true.
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Early Jewel = H-118 – Very Early, Large size fruit, Red colored fruit, Soft when Ripe very High-quality Fruit Precocious and a consistent producer bears seedless fruit south of the Ohio River due to it being a 90 Chromosome persimmon. Out of the Late James Claypool Breeding program, Very early, large size, reddish colored fruit, soft when ripe.
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100-46 - Lehman’s Delight From the Breeding work of Jerry Lehman of Terra Haute Indiana, one of his newest creations. Very large fruit, smooth flesh, clear pulp, and made to be loved. While not a large tree it is one of the heaviest producing persimmon I have ever witnessed. With very good flavor and smooth flesh, this fruit is all about taste.
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That is what Cliff says about 100-46 and H-118.
No mention of 100-46 being seedless… but on H-118… it bears seedless fruit south of ohio river.
I am way south of the ohio river.
My wild persimmons here… (5 that i harvest from regular) are always seeded. Typically 5-7 seeds per fruit. That includes rich tooie.
I have a nice sized male persimmon near my mailbox… i saw it loaded with male flowers this spring. I just figured it was a 60 C male… and my others would be too…
It would be disapointing to grow H-118 based on his seedless claims… and find it to be full of seeds too.
IDK ???
Per google… I am 337 miles south of ohio river.
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There is a 90-chromosome American persimmon that is native to the northern U.S. and a 60-chromosome type that is native to Kentucky and the southern U.S. Most of the named varieties are of the 90-chromosome type that set fruit parthenocarpically, without pollination. Thus pollination is not necessary for the 90-chromosome type and fruit are easier to process with few or no seeds.
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Found that in a article from KYU.
If KY (a state north of me) is known to have 60 c persimmons… surley TN has 60 c persimmons.
If H-118 and 100-46 are 90 c persimmons… do they get pollinated by my 60 c males ?
Or do you think there are just a few stray 90 c males even down here in the south ?
Or do the 90c females just normally produce “few to no seeds” whether there are 90c or 60c males nearby. ?
All the wilds i have collected from here from several different parts of my county typically have 5-7 seeds. I guess that is the norm when you have 60c male pollinating 60c female.
Thanks
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It’s not a clear boundary (natural boundaries seldom are). South of the Ohio and East of the Mississippi is mostly 60 chromosome trees, but there are definitely 90 chromosome trees around. And there are 60 chromosome trees in the 90 chromosome area, too. I can’t seem to find it, but the most detailed map I’ve seen of tree locations and chromosome counts does not show an area you can cleanly demarcate as being only 60 chromosome, at least not at the state level.
That being said, my understanding is most cultivars are significantly less seedy than the wild types.
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If this statement from KYU is true…
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Most of the named varieties are of the 90-chromosome type that set fruit parthenocarpically, without pollination. Thus pollination is not necessary for the 90-chromosome type and fruit are easier to process with few or no seeds
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I know this is true… i have harvested wild persimmons from many areas in my county (Southern TN) and every single one of them has seeds… normally several.
They (KYU) seem to be saying… few or no seeds = 90c fruit.
Does that happen even if 90c female has 90c males nearby ? They do produce pollen right?
Even if pollinated by 90c male nearby they still produce few to no seeds ???
Do 90c trees mostly reproduce by root suckers ?
I mean…if they make few to no seeds… how do they reproduce ?
Would that not exclude my trees from being 90 c ? In 60+ years never found one that had few to no seeds. Normally 5 to 7. In that respect my trees sure dont match the 90c per KYU.
Seems like that indicates mine must be 60c trees.
I have seen wild males here… in a hollow bottom competing with other timber 50-60 ft tall easily.
My sisters trees are in a clearing… getting full sun all day… they are in the 35 ft range.
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I think the KYU statement is saying they can fruit without pollination, which makes them easier to process. But I don’t see anything, nor have I experienced or read anything that suggests 90C varieties have few or no seeds if you have 90C males around.
The 100-46 fruit I got last year had between 3-5 seeds each and the Prok fruit that have dropped this year that I’ve cut in half to check have all showed at least 1 seed, but often 3-4. When I harvest my 100-46 and Prok this year I’ll be able to see how many seeds they have in the fruit that make it to harvest. I really don’t know where the male pollen is coming from, so it isn’t close by in the next yard or something. For that reason how many seeds I get may change year to year depending on the activity of the pollinators. Again, according to the ploidy map that exists I am supposed to be in a 60C area.
I mostly brought it up since you are finding a number of good wild varieties to eat, which makes it seem like they are possibly 90C fruit since the majority of selected and bred varieties are 90C. I believe the few 60C selected varieties that exist have relatively small fruit. The fruit from your sister’s tree looks 90C to me based on the size. That makes it seem like you may have 90C trees around and is why I suggested you may not get seedless fruit. Keep in mind that the initial distribution maps for 90C/60C persimmons were based on sampling just a single site or possibly 2 per state. It really is an area that needs a lot more study for people to be able to say definitively where the different distributions really are.
Here is another document from KYU that might give you some insight depending on which county you are in, since they sampled specific counties.
But probably the only way you’ll know is when you start getting fruit from your 90C trees. I just don’t think there is a big difference in whether one variety has seeds or not, but I’ve only gotten two varieties fruiting so far, both seeded. Actually, I had some H-118 and Barbaras Blush fruit, but they dropped early and I didn’t think to cut them in half to see whether they had similar seed formation. Next year I’ll try to remember to cut any that form regardless when they drop and see what seeds are forming.
If seedless becomes important to you and your 90C trees give you seeds, some of the hybrids may get seedless fruit or mostly seedless (partially formed seeds) since they aren’t as close genetically due to their Kaki component.
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Thank you @zendog for the detailed explanation.
I was getting excited about the possibility of a big ole american persimmon with no seeds. That sure would be nice for processing and my wife is not a big fan of eating fruit with seeds… too messy for her.
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There’s always bagging to exclude pollinators!
I know what you mean. I don’t mind eating around the seeds, but it does make more work for bulk processing. I’m far enough away from persimmons native range that I should need able to experience seedless fruit, but we’ll see!
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I have 1 roadside wild persimmon near our local walmart that I collect from, and 3 wilds here on my property that I collect fruit from and they are all very similar in fruit size (around 1 1/4 inch) and taste, nice clear orange pulp, good persimmon flavor but nothing extra…
Then my sisters persimmons are quite a bit larger 1 3/4 to 2 inch… some this year look huge. I will have to measure when I harvest some. Rich Tooie fruit is not that same clear orange, but a darker orange color, brownish tint to it. When you eat one at first awesome persimmon flavor, but a very rich after taste… that is caramel like… so good.
Perhaps her tree is 90 and my others are 60.
Or could just be tree maturity… her trees are quite a bit older than mine.
I have spotted two really nice sized persimmon trees (roadside) this year… and stopped and confirmed one has some nice size fruit on it. The other one is larger and hopefully it is a female too with fruit. If so I will hopefully get to sample some fruit from other larger trees here and compare the fruit size and flavor.
Yep… now that I have got the look of persimmon trees down well… I ride down the road… scanning the roadsides for persimmons. I bet some of you do that too.
TNHunter
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My named persimmons tend to have fewer seeds than the wild ones. I am surrounded by wild male 90c persimmons.
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