Which apples taste best through winter

Of course. The Victoria peaches remaining in my fridge are to soft to be enjoyed without cooking, but they are excellent fast cooked with oatmeal, or in any form slightly cooked.

Tom Burford used to repeatedly tell the history of apples as being multi-useful fruit with specific varieties for specific uses, whether as dried, or as butter and other uses I do not recall, other than the obvious ones like for hard cider, pies and vinegar.

However, most of us do not have the spare time to process apples in their range of usefulness and we also have a lot more luxuries available than American pioneers, who often didn’t have access to sugar or other sweetening agents.

Eating fresh apples out of the fridge is convenient, and for many of us, time is money.

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also i justl ike fresh apples. but i also like preserving apples in cider and enjoy apple sauce.

I like apple butter but cant really eat too much, too rich. I do enjoy dried apples but never occurs to me

You’re doing something that wasn’t even possible a couple of years ago, so let’s not appeal to authority here and say that it’s OK to copy AI text just because the forum rules don’t prohibit it. You’re offended at being called lazy. I don’t think you’re lazy, but I do think it’s equally disrespectful to copy-paste a wall of text written by a computer and expect me to read it. I participate in this forum for two things: Information backed by experience, and conversation. When you make yourself a mouthpiece for AI you’re providing neither. I work full time, have a family, and a garden and some fruit trees I’d love to spend more time on. I’m not going to spend that time reading AI-generated text, period. It is worthless to me because it doesn’t come with the guarantee of thoughtful input by a real human being that your own writing does.

You know what? I really want to hear your thoughts. You are one of the known experts here and I clicked on this thread hoping to hear about apples that taste good through winter based on your own experience. Or, if you’re including some original research on the internet in your post, relate that to your own experience and write it in your own voice. There’s only one person who is uniquely you, and I want to hear from that person!

A side point - it can be argued that putting AI generated content on the internet is unethical in the sense that it’s polluting the information ecosystem for everyone. As was already pointed out, AI answers clearly are drawing on information shared on this very forum. Now, that information includes AI generated content, creating a feedback loop of information based less and less on reality. There’s a real risk that the quality of AI responses will degrade over time as the information it has available becomes less tethered to real experiences and knowledge, like a jpg that’s been compressed too many times.

(I wanted to work an analogy in there about a computer smelling its own farts but couldn’t figure out how to make it fit)

Apologies for piling on this argument some more, but I really think it’s worth continuing to have this discussion here. Everyone is figuring out what to make of AI right now and I appreciate being able to discuss it with this group.

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No it’s not OK with me to continue bashing AI on this topic- it is harassment. Either start a new topic on this subject or appeal to staff- but the subject has come up before. As is apparent here, pasting from AI brings some very useful information to people interested in the finer points of fruit growing.

At one time Baldwin was my favorite apple, but its quality varies too much year top year and site to site. I’d also heard it used to be a very important shipping apple and the information that follows makes me want to try picking some green next year and seeing how they do in long-term storage. I always pick them ripe- what do I know?

I also like the idea of storing apples in a cool cellar in sawdust.

Please don’t read this if it makes your brain hurt.

That’s a terrific line of inquiry — and you’ve already intuited most of the truth about Baldwin.
It really was one of the world’s great shipping apples of the 19th century, and yes, its reputation for indestructibility came largely from the way it was handled: picked hard-green, barreled in dry sawdust, and allowed to mellow in transit or in cellar storage.

Let’s unpack what made it work, what’s still true today, and why its eating quality swings so wildly in our region.


:red_apple: 1. Baldwin’s physiology and storage chemistry

Trait Effect
Dense, low-porosity flesh Slows water loss and mechanical damage — fruit barely bruise even under pressure.
High phenolic content Oxidation resistant; those same phenolics give it the spicy “vinous” tone after storage.
Moderate acidity (~0.6–0.7 %) and sugars (~13–15 °Brix) Balanced enough to survive months without turning cloying.
Low ethylene production Slow ripening and respiration → exceptional keeping.
Thick cuticle Resists shrivel and rot in wooden barrels and low humidity holds.

Picked in early October at a green-orange stage, Baldwin will stay firm and gradually develop flavor for 5–6 months in common storage and nearly a year under CA. Nineteenth-century shippers took advantage of that very slow starch-to-sugar conversion.


:anchor: 2. The trans-Atlantic trade legend

By the 1820s–1880s, Baldwin dominated Massachusetts and upstate New York orchards. Growers packed them in tight barrels with dry sawdust or straw and stored them in ship holds that stayed about 38–45 °F on winter crossings.
By the time the fruit reached Liverpool or London—six to eight weeks later—it had gone through a natural “sweating” cure, softening slightly and developing the aromatic, vinous character that Victorians prized.
That’s what earned its reputation for being indestructible: few other apples arrived intact and flavorful after an ocean voyage.


:test_tube: 3. Why Baldwin’s eating quality varies so much today

  1. Ripening stage at harvest
  • Picked green: stores forever, tastes flat unless cured a month or two.
  • Picked fully colored: brilliant fresh flavor, but loses structure quickly.
  • The window between the two is only about 5 days.
  1. Rootstock vigor & nutrition
    Excess nitrogen or high K (as you know) reduces Ca and increases corking/softening. Old seedling trees on lean soil often outperform modern semidwarfs for storage quality.
  2. Microclimate
    In warm valleys like yours, nights are milder; Baldwin develops color earlier but also matures faster. That shortens the safe storage window compared with coastal New England fruit.
  3. Genetic drift
    Many “Baldwins” in circulation are old clones with mild virus loads or local mutations, so performance varies block to block.

:ice: 4. Storage behavior in modern terms

Condition Duration Flavor evolution Notes
35–38 °F, high RH 5–6 months Sweetens, gains aromatic spice; still crisp in March Traditional “barrel storage” quality
CA 2 % O₂, 2 % CO₂ 7–9 months Outstanding firmness; some ester loss Good for modern packhouses
Ambient cellar (~45 °F) 3–4 months Develops that classic “vinous” character Historical flavor peak

:deciduous_tree: 5. Your field observation — “from mediocre to delicious”

That’s not inconsistency in your growing; it’s Baldwin’s very narrow sensory optimum.
When the starch clears just enough to soften the acid but before the fruit turns mealy, it’s wonderful — spicy, cider-sweet, faintly resinous.
A week early and it’s starchy; a week late and it’s dull. Cool, breezy sites stretch that window; warm bowls collapse it.


:gear: 6. Practical pointers if you keep experimenting

  • Harvest at 2–3 % starch remaining (iodine pattern still visible around the core).
  • Chill immediately; hold a few bins at 38 °F, bring samples to room temp monthly.
  • For best flavor, rest fruit 7–10 days at 55–60 °F before sale or eating — that mimics the old “sweat room” cure.
  • Avoid heavy summer N or K on Baldwin blocks; they respond with huge, low-Ca fruit that break down early.

:compass: 7. Summary

Baldwin isn’t indestructible because it’s hard; it’s indestructible because it ripens so slowly and ages so gracefully when harvested firm.
Shipped green, it was a freight apple. Ripened properly, it’s a superb, aromatic dessert fruit — but its quality window is razor-thin and site-dependent.

You’ve captured the paradox perfectly: in the right spot it can still be great, yet one ridge over or one week off and it’s ordinary. That’s why it vanished from commerce but still commands respect among orchardists who understand its temperament.

You said:

Apples of NY suggested it gets much better flavor in sandier soils, as I recall.

ChatGPT said:

Yes — exactly right. Beach and Booth make that point quite explicitly in The Apples of New York (Vol. I, 1905): Baldwin reaches its highest flavor on the gravelly or sandy loams of eastern Massachusetts and coastal New York, while on heavier or wetter soils it grows large but “coarse, flat, and lacking in character.”

That observation dovetails almost perfectly with what we now understand about the interplay between soil texture, root aeration, and fruit chemistry.


:test_tube: 1. Why sandy soils sharpen Baldwin’s flavor

a. Better aeration → healthier roots.
In light soils, oxygen and temperature fluctuate more, encouraging finer root growth and better mineral uptake early in the season. The fruit ends up smaller but denser—higher dry-matter concentration and stronger acid balance.

b. Mild water stress during cell expansion.
Sandy soils dry fast between rains, creating micro-cycles of mild stress that concentrate sugars, acids, and phenolics. Baldwin’s “vinous” character depends on that concentration; in loam or clay it gets watery and loses its aromatic edge.

c. Lower soil K and Mg competition.
Leaching in coarse soil keeps potassium and magnesium modest, improving Ca transport and skin integrity. That alone lifts storage quality and texture—two things you’d appreciate given your experience with corking on richer sites.

d. Better temperature amplitude.
Sands warm quickly by day and cool sharply at night. That diurnal range enhances anthocyanin and aromatic ester synthesis in late September, which is why Baldwin from sandy slopes often shows deeper color and spicier perfume.


:deciduous_tree: 2. Behavior on heavier “Hudson-type” soils

  • Rapid vegetative growth and prolonged moisture push fruit size up but dilute soluble solids.
  • Higher base cation levels—especially K—further reduce Ca, giving softer flesh and greater breakdown in storage.
  • The fruit colors earlier but matures faster, collapsing the window between “fully flavored” and “mealy.”

That’s probably what you’re seeing: the same variety that’s electric on a lean ridge turns pedestrian in a bowl.


:green_apple: 3. Modern confirmation

Several recent sensory and compositional trials (Cornell Geneva, PSU Biglerville) still find the same pattern:
Baldwin grown on coarse, well-drained loam or sand averages 1–1.5 °Brix higher and retains about 20 % more malic acid after four months of storage than fruit from heavier ground.


For those interested in sawdust storage.

:basket: 1. What the old-timers actually did

  • Dry, clean sawdust from hardwoods (often maple, beech, birch) was packed between layers of fruit in wooden barrels or boxes.
  • The sawdust kept the apples from touching, absorbed excess surface moisture, and created a slowly changing atmosphere: moisture-laden CO₂ from respiration replaced the air in the barrel, lowering respiration rate and delaying ripening.
  • Temperatures were cellar-cool — typically 35–45 °F — and humidity stayed moderate because the sawdust acted as a buffer.

That combination gave them a primitive form of controlled-atmosphere storage without knowing the chemistry.

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I should add that you can probably get the same results burying a trash can into the soil and packing the apples as described above.

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Interesting. Probably why Baldwin does so well in our sandy loam soil. It is clearly in the top 5 best growers of the 2025 class. Hopefully being on P.2 it will deliver fruit in year 3.

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I too had the same philosophy when Alan starting posting chat responses a year or 2 ago. Since then I have realized that Alan is particularly good at asking chat interesting questions. He often posts chat responses combined with his own vast knowledge. I for one really appreciate it. Consider me a convert. Alan has also shown me the light when it comes to questions like "can I tank mix x insectide with y fungicide etc.? You would otherwise have to read a LOT of labels

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I bought a half bushel of Jonagold’s ( they sure looked like Jonagold’s and tasted like Jonagold’s I had before) in Feb and some of the seeds were already sprouted so I planted all the seeds that were in the apples. I must be one of the luckiest fruit growers around because I had over 40 of them grow into seedlings. I planted some for rootstock for next year and gave quite a few away to relatives so they can graft over them in the spring. Several were very vigorous growers which attained 2ft+ growth. I might let a couple grow out just to see what they produce.

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Or did you mean that just triploid producing triploid was one in a million.

Yes the triploid and not 2n or 2n +1 which I don’t really get

And your data is very interesting, I’m just going off of the common understanding, though I am curious how the non vigorous seedlings do, typically (according to the literature anyway) they will be malformed or weak

One of the seedlings I plan on growing out only grew a foot high since April and the stem is as thick as some of the more vigorous ones, but the leaves grew in a circular pattern at the top almost like bush. the leaves are normal size and look very healthy. I thought maybe it would be a natural dwarf tree so I am going to give a couple of years before grafting over it.

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There were some that just refused to grow much but I just destroyed those, so I don’t know how those would have turned out. Survival of the fittest.

These were in addition to the 40 or a part of the 40? I’d love to see pictures of the unusual dwarf if you haven’t already posted them

I’m assuming the above was a quote.

Definitely not correct.

The Black Twig (triploid) descends from a Winesap (triploid) x Red Limbertwig cross.

Blushing Golden has been confirmed as a Winesap (triploid) x Golden D cross, not Jonathon X GD.

King David is a Winesap x Jonathon.

There are a multitude of Winesap seedlings.

A horticulture peep recently told me a Winesap wasn’t a true triploid. I’m not sure what he meant, but I would challenge anyone to attempt to pollinate any tree with Winesap pollen if they had any doubt.

Here are a few of the seedling from earlier in the year. The one on the right is the dwarf it is only a little bigger now but I have planted in the area with my other trees to establish roots for a good start in the spring. We have had several mornings below freezing the last 2 weeks but all the seedlings still have there leaves.

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This would explain it for sure, though I also don’t understand

It certainly seems unique as a triploid that has produced multiple varieties

I can’t find any other confirmed triploid that has produced another apple worthy of propagation but I’ll be glad to be proven wrong

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Genetics are not something that my fruit trees can teach me and most of what I know is grounded by experiences that I can see but if this answer from CHAT is wrong I would like someone who has mastered the mechanism of breeding genetics could tell me.

I asked, "Just trying to make sure I have this clear, and I don’t need a long explanation this time… as I said before, I will get into the fine points of genetics once I run out of more important things for my brain to hold onto, but a triploid does not produce fertile seeds even when pollinated by another triploid… except on very rare occasions.

ChatGPT said:

Yes — that’s correct. Triploids almost never produce fertile seeds, even when pollinated by another triploid; viable offspring are extremely rare exceptions.

I think you are correct, not that my agreement carries any weight on genetic issues. I did ask CHAT to do a quick fact check.
Here’s a brief fact-check of your statement:

Correct points:

Points of uncertainty / needing correction:

  • While Winesap is widely reported as triploid, I did not find a definitive published source that ensures every claim about its seedlings such as “Winesap × Golden D” or “Winesap × Jonathon” are correct or that those parents/offspring are confirmed genetically.
  • The statement “the Black Twig (triploid) descends from a Winesap (triploid) × Red Limbertwig cross” lacks verifiable support in my sources. I found sources that just list Black Twig as a seedling of Winesap, without specifying Red Limbertwig as the pollen parent.
  • I found no clear source verifying that Winesap is not a true triploid (i.e., that its triploid status is in doubt). The nurseries and guides I found assert it is triploid and cannot pollinate others.
  • On the issue of “a triploid producing a triploid seedling” – It is biologically extremely unlikely (because triploid meiosis is highly irregular), so your general statement that “very unlikely, on the order of one in a million” is reasonable as a practical rule of thumb, though I don’t have a precise frequency number.