Whip and Tongue Questions

@zfw… yes… ideally scionwood is about pencil size… 1/4 inch diameter is ideal.

You can whip/toung 1/4 inch scion to 1/4 inch rootstock easily.

Last year I got bell pear scion that was near 1/2 inch diameter. I grafted it W/T to kiefer pear… to a branch that matched that diameter.

The picture up this thread of that mohler persimmon graft I did whip/toung… was using 1/4 inch scion to 1/4 inch rootstock.

The rootstock at the base may have been 1/2 inch… but I selected a location on up the rootstock where it reduced to 1/4 inch to place my graft.

Lots of fruit trees produce 1/4 inch diameter scionwood (last years growth) easily… apples pears plums cherry mulberry che, northern persimmons, etc…

TNHunter

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I guess I need to work on my knife sharpening and motor skills. The thought of working that minutely seems unlikely at this point. Cleft is so much easier at 1/4 inch diameter!

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@zfw … I think sometimes it is just what you get comfortable with.

I have never done a cleft graft… but think it is often the one that many people start off with.

I grew up using a knife regularly… hunting fishing trapping predator hunter carving whittling.

I got comfortable with whip/tounge, modified cleft and bark grafts… easily… and have not seen a need for anything else yet.

TNHunter

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Actually Mark, I begin checking my grafts to remove graft union tapes much earlier, as I have lost many good takes by girdling the graft union. If the graft union heals and begins to grow in diameter the tight wraps very quickly cut or impede the flow of nutrients as the tape digs into the outer bark. I like to loosen or remove the graft union tapes once I have 3-4” of growth, I then splint the graft union to support it from bird landings for the growing season. Since I started this practice I have not had girdling graft failures. So after 3 weeks of callousing, I check my grafts weekly to determine when to remove grafting tapes, and apply a splint.
Otherwise I agree with your comments
Dennis
Kent Wa

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The reason one year old wood works best is because the new wood is very supple, easy to bend and force the closing of the cuts. The better you can close the gaps between scion and rootstock, the sooner the wound can callous and heal over the cuts!
If your receiving rootstock limb is a greater diameter either go off center with a cleft graft where cambiums can match, or do a side Whip and tougue
Dennis
Kent Wa

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How do you secure them together with this technique? I always cleft bark chip or wt, but this sounds great for mismatched sizes. Just tape it very tightly?

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@gray @Gkight … that side graft looks interesting… i have seen a few on youtube using it.

It seems less secure than modified cleft to me but not sure about that.

Modified cleft is very easy for me… simple cuts compared to whip/tounge… and no complaints about 100% success so far.

I will probably just stick with MC.

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Interesting! I’ve always compulsively checked grafts because I’m impatient, but I’ve generally been able to just leave the wraps on. But then, I typically only use grafting rubbers and parafilm, which are generally pretty well shot by the end of the season:

But I’ll defer to your greater experience. I love learning something new!

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I don’t see the need to wrap the whole scion in parafilm. I wrap ~2 inches above and below the union, starting at the rootstock, working my way up the scion, then down again. Parafilm should be wrapped under tension (slight stretch, but not so much that it is ripping). If done this way, there is no need to muck around with rubber bands, the parafilm will hold everything together tight enough.

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Hi Mark
I can see why rubbers might not girdle as they give some. I use 1” wide plastic strips to tighten the graft union so they do not give as much as rubber bands do.
Dennis

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Wrapping the scions completely is not essential, but it does help prevent drying if the scion is taking a while to knit to the root stock. I like to wrap the scion before grafting, because if I wrap it during grafting I’m liable to wiggle it loose.

And if I’m completely honest my technique is not so good that I can count on just the parafilm to cinch the parts together. I need the reassurance of more tension than the parafilm can provide, especially when cleft grafting to older stock.

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I also pre wrap all my scions with buddy tape, it’s really the best stuff in the world for grafting. It’s all I use with the exception of rubber bands which deteriorate quickly to tighten my sloppy cuts. When I make a good cut I simply only use buddy tape. But I do cover everything with a few layers on the graft union.

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I do the exact same process as @marknmt. I still haven’t conquered the whip&tongue . . . so just use a cleft graft. I have had great success - even with the clefts. I think it has really helped to wrap all scions in parafilm tape. I wrap all of my ‘send-outs’ that I ship to other people, as well. I have never use the waxed tips method, only because I want more of the scion protected than just the raw ends. I make sure to cover the ends of the scions with the parafilm. And I hold everything in place, on the new grafts, first with parafilm and then with Temflex. Many times it stretches a bit with the grafts’ growth - and is easy to remove before it causes any damage. I check on the new grafts and if the Temflex looks like it needs help coming off - then I use a little ‘snap blade’ cutter to make a shallow score, lengthwise, in the tape - and it will come right off.
I always keep in mind -
Lining up the cambien layers is the most important thing . . . no matter how wonderful any wrapping/securing method is. If that doesn’t happen . . . the graft won’t take. But . . . I’m sure you already know that!

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@Gkight - Is Buddy Tape any better than just plain old parafilm? What is the diff? I’ve never tried it. I did give the medical parafilm a try - but quite frankly - had an easier time using rolls of ½" parafilm that I bought online.

Buddy tape is a wax tape so it stretches and keeps the scion hydrated while allowing it to break through easily enough. It’s just the easiest to work with, sticks to itself really well.

It’s expensive but for no more than I graft a roll will last me many years.

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This is not a question - but a caution for new grafters!
One of the biggest mistakes I’ve made with my first grafts - was to ‘have little faith in the process and my abilities’ - and to choose branches to graft to which were not in great places on the tree and that I thought of as ‘disposable’ compared to others. (In case they bombed!)
What I should have done is aim for success by considering apical dominance and bet on higher branches to support the grafts. More nutrients, hormones and all of that . . . and the grafts would have thrived instead of limping along - as my lower grafts did.
I didn’t know this, at the beginning . . . but now - “It’s a whole new ball game” with my expectations and results - and quicker fruiting to boot.

I have learned everything I know, so far, about fruit trees and grafting - from this forum and a just a few other YouTube people’s teaching videos. It has been wonderful. I’m very grateful. And ‘Apical Dominance’ is a biggy - when it comes to many things concerning fruit trees. It can make or break the success of a graft.

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Exactly. Grafting on anything growing vertically gives rapid growth, especially the trunk/leader. Grafting on a horizontal branch or far away from trunk gives much slower growth, in general.

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Grafting closer to the trunk, and vertical makes sense. Is there a preference between lower down on the trunk versus towards the top of the tree?

As @PomGranny says, “bet on higher branches to support the grafts”.

That’s not to say that grafts made lower on the tree are doomed to failure. But they do have some extra headwinds in that there is more auxin finding its way from the higher branches to the lower ones.

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Depends partly: do you want to entirely re-make the tree (graft say 3ft height on trunk) vs just add a second variety (graft above bottom scaffolds).