Here’s my Gordon Apple planted a year ago March in a 1 cu.yd. planting hole with an 8’ diameter basin, and also my neighbor’s Gordon Apple purchased in the same month from the same nursery and planted in the same month in a 15 gallon planting hole with a 16 inch basin.
Wow, that is an impressive difference! How deep did you dig your 8’ diameter hole? Did you amend with compost or peat or fertilize at all when you backfilled the planting hole, or is the tree just in the native soil?
I didn’t :D. The rim basin is a 6" to 8" high berm constructed from some of the dirt excavated from the planting hole.
The native soil in that part of the yard is a mixture of sands and light-mineral clays, very low in carbon. I mixed it 50%/50% with mushroom compost that had been curing in my driveway for about a year. I also feed my plants.
Another factor in the difference in performance is the weeds and grasses the neighbor permits to invade the planting hole. Although they do clear the grass foliage away from the surface every couple of months, they don’t seem to understand that once established, the bermuda grass roots and rhizomes are there to stay.
I was able to kill off a large patch of bermuda by putting a thick layer of cardboard down and covering that with wood chips. A year after i did that and the cardboard was gone and there wasnt a weed or bit of grass anywhere. I thought it was impossible to kill it gefore that experiment.
In other words the difference might not be due to the planting hole. It could just as easily be due to watering schedule, weed competition, fertilization differences, soil differences, etc, etc, or just tree to tree variability.
In my opinion, it is due to both the planting hole and the basin maintenance.
If you tried that here, the next time it rains the bermuda will be back with a vengeance. Further, I’ve only found two herbicides that work here on established patches: Turflon Ester and Triclopyr 4E.
@Richard what was the hole size for a Cu yard was it 3ft deep, wide and long?
My yard “soil” is essentially construction grade fill dirt hard and clayey. We find it challenging to dig holes to plant flower shrubs, digging to plant a fruit tree will need to dig without mechanized equipment. So far I have planted a couple tree directly on the surface with a berm, I don’t know if that is ideal. What good enough depth would you recommend to dig if I were to make a 8" mound and plant the tree?
Yes, sometimes a bit deeper and wider.
In all cases of planting holes for fruit trees a drainage test is necessary. After digging the hole, use a hose to fill it at least halfway. If the water hasn’t drained completely (in the absence of rain) overnight then installation of a French drain is required.
A portion of my yard has a lens of tidal clay. I installed a system of 3" pipe with perforations covered by a “sock” at the bottom of the planting holes in that area at a depth of 3+ feet. The system converges to a single pipe which exits to the street behind my yard. As you’ve heard me say before, the cost of a tree is just the down payment. In two cases I’ve not been happy with the cultivars I originally planted and swapped them out.
Great job of using the French drain.
I’ve tried the same for general drainage of my backyard to the front, but unfortunately the difference in elevation over that 120 feet is maybe a foot total.
Need a shoulder shrug emoticon.
¯_(ツ)_/¯
Our front yard is lower than the street in front. The neighbor behind us was also tired of his backyard being flooded during rain from water flowing from the properties behind him. I worked with him and got a permit from the city to build a retaining wall across the back of his property and run a drain pipe through the base of wall (above the footing) and underground in his yard to his front street – complete with additional drains in his yard. It didn’t cost him a cent.
The stopping point for me is we have open ditches in the front along the street. The elevation of the standing water in the ditch on a dry day isn’t much lower than the backyard property line.
I live in a relatively new house (27 years) in a neighborhood first developed in the early 50’s. They didn’t engineer the back property lines for drainage.
It is what it is.
Now you might see why I’ve been whining about rootstock… Trying to overcome what was given to me on my lot and location.
Some properties aren’t appropriate for fruit trees. Fortunately there are numerous other kinds of fruiting plants to fill the void.
I’m in denial…
This is true, not necessarily the the price tag of a tree which is still cheaper than a meal well known journalist recently paid at airport lounge in New Jersey ;). Time commitment to care, monitor, and nurture the tree is the major factor. That said I enjoy the process and don’t mind.
Couple of followup questions:
The French drain idea is interesting, are there any long term impact where the roots would tear through the pipe? I had this happen in my yard where previous owner had buried poly irrigation lines and cherry tree roots had decimated the lines it took an expensive rip and replace with PVC project to fix it.
If I can’t get to dig a hole that is 3ft all in all, what would you recommend for a suboptimal yet acceptable solution.
Would love to see some pictures, I have similar situation in my yard where the fruit trees are, and the entire yard is held by pressure treated wood at the top and rock retaining wall at the bottom. Basically my rear yard is 7-8 ft higher than the street behind the fence. So far the drainage contractors haven’t been able to tell me anything other than putting a huge dry flow wells in my yard to move the water.
I use schedule 40 PVC.
There are some fruiting tree species whose roots are vigorous enough but your yard is too small for them.
Fruit trees in 40-inch wooden tree boxes on a concrete slab southeast of Portland last about a dozen years, then need root pruning, appropriate scaffold pruning to match, and new boxes. The tree boxes are sold in kits to nurseries.
Fruiting vines and shrubs are more adaptable to clay conditions. A colleague of mine in northern CA built raised beds on top of their impermeable back yard “soil”. These are serious boxes screwed together with decking lumber including vertical side and corner supports. They are about 32 inches high – a perfect working height. The dimensions are 4’x8’. There’s at least six feet between the boxes. There is automated watering. He filled them with a loamy soil mix: I’d guess about 1/2 horticultural sand, a 1/4 triple-ground redwood/sequoia bark, and 1/4 cured dried recycled greenery. In them he planted his favorite vegetables, berries, and grapes.
With a bit of experience, a good mix of fruiting shrubs, vines, and vegetables can out produce fruiting trees per square foot of suburban backyard space.
Some people are destined to learn most everything by trial and error.
It would be almost pointless if it were easy and perfect the first time.
Nature doesn’t work that way and I’m fine with it.
reminds me of William Blake’s quote “A fool who persists in his folly will become wise” 
I tend to get what I want while getting wise 
Hi Richard
I went thru the thread trying to get your intended message (Why?). Although there is a lot to be gleaned from the postings that followed, I’m not sure I fully understand what you wanted to convey to readers.
Recently due to our extended dry summer and my impression of when the drought cycle might end here in the west, I’ve done quite a bit of research into the best way to plant trees. It would be interesting to see a current pic of your Gordon tree vs your neighbor’s now to give us a fuller understanding of the advantage your tree has had. I assume based on your native soil description that since your soil does not have the most desirable soil structure that this is your main reason for compost amending, and I assume the 8’ wide basin is to collect more natural rainwater. I am wondering if you have since mulched your tree out to the drip line? Given my belief that our western drought is with us for a few more years before it breaks, I have spent most of my summer researching soil amendments to improve my soil CEC and using wood chips to mulch all my trees out to the drip line. Your experience with some updated comparison pics might be an excellent teaching point for readers who are planning new plantings or desiring to improve existing conditions.
Dennis
Kent, wa
