Wine grapes "on own rootstock" - Big mistake?!?!?

[Bart]

I ordered a couple trees from Bay Laurel and also ordered a few replacement grape vines and I didn’t realize until I received (and planted them) that there was no rootstock information. I checked on Bay Laurel’s website and it said “The wine grapes we offer are all grown on their own roots.” The grapes were Merlot (originally from Dave Wilson Nursery) and Chardonnay (originally from some other vendor in CA that I don’t recall the name). Anyhow, I thought Vinifera grapes needed to be planted on a different rootstock to survive.

Anyone have any thoughts on this? Are these vines doomed?

[Bart]

So I called Bay Laurel to ask about this and they said these were in fact vines on their own roots and not transplanted onto a different rootstock.

I asked about them getting infected with phyloxera (which is why they’re grafted onto different rootstocks in the first place) and she said that “unless I was a commercial grower with thousands of vines, I’d probably be ok”

Does that make any sense? I only have 44 vines but the oldest are 10 years old (not sure if that matters) and I’m surrounded by commercial vineyards (not sure if that matters either). I was under the impression that unless wine grapes (Vitis vinerfera) are grafted onto resistant rootstock, they will get phyloxera and die.

[scottfsmith]

I grew some from Bay Laurel on their own roots and I had the same worry. I eventually grafted the variety to another root and pulled up the original one, but this was years later and it was perfectly healthy when I pulled it. I did see some phylloxera one year in my vineyard. If you want a grape vine to last forever I would consider getting another source.

In general I would reconsider messing with vinifera in the mid-atlantic, they are a big pain in terms of spray requirements. I pulled my last one a few years ago.

[Bart]

Thanks Scott.

Do you have any sources other than Double A? They still have Merlot but are sold out of Chardonnay. And the irony is I went with Bay Laurel so I’d save on shipping costs at Double A since I was already ordering trees from Bay Laurel. So to save a few buck in additional shipping costs, I bought $60 worth of vines that I’ll have to rip up! Yeah!!

I’m into making wine so these varieties have to stay, but, yeah the spraying is a bit of a pain.

[MuddyMess_8a]

Bart, have you thought of contacting your County Extension Agency to ask them about concerns and sources? Vineyards are a big economic deal for agriculture and tourist industries in Fauquier. The extension agency is likely to either a knowledgeable staff person, or should at least be able to provide contact information.

[Bart]

Thanks Muddy. I haven’t really contacted anyone but I have read a lot of the material put out by VA Tech which has some experimental vineyards not to far from me. Everything I’ve read from them talks about the need for resistant rootstocks. Actually, they barely mention the need for the rootstocks, they spend a lot of time comparing and contrasting the different rootstocks and pros and cons. I think it’s a given that you need some kind of rootstock, you just have to pick the right one for your site.

I’m shocked that you can even buy vines on their own roots. I guess they’re taking advantage of people who don’t know any better, or don’t pay close enough attention. (that’d be me)

[Bart]

To answer my own question, I found this site that sells small quantities of grapes on phyloxera resistant rootstock. It ain’t cheap, but I’m desperate.

HOME - Grapevines Galore

[Tom932]

Unless you have phyloxera in the soil in your area , you will be fine. It’s native to some areas in the USA but not all.

[folkert]

Phylloxera, native to the US, has spread to Europe. My understanding is that European grapes are grown even in Europe on resistant root stocks. Muscardines are also resistant and are grown on their own roots.

[jcf]

Its pretty much as Tom932 pointed out. The resistant stocks are meant or required in areas that have Phylloxera and these are usually commercially important growing regions.

When trialling various wine grape varieties at WSU we imported hundreds of grafted and non grafted vines from California and Oregon. None of these were on Phylloxere resistant stocks. We were interested in pushing the envelope of maturing time so I think we had 5 different stocks we were looking at that matured grapes earlier.

[SethDoty]

This is a ten year old thread, so I imagine the original poster has made their move one way or another by now!

When it comes to vineyard level plantings in the usa, or most of the world for that matter, IMHO it’s always foolish to plant on phylloxera suceptible roots. Yes, there are a few areas of the USA where phylloxera is not present, but not many, and even in those regions, it could always change. There is a reason why nearly all native wild grapes in the eastern half of the USA have phylloxera resistance to one degree or another.

Now if you have just a vine or two in the backyard, sure, it’s very possible a suceptible type could survive for many years without picking up phylloxera just by luck. Even in areas where it’s present, it’s not in every patch of soil at all times, as it only lives on grape. If a new vineyard is planted in soils that have not previously had grapes, it’s common for it to take 5-10 years for infestation to occur. The bug is most commonly spread to new hosts on the wind in nature, and it has to be blown to and land on or near a suceptible host by pure chance unless it’s tracked in or brought in on grape roots by humans inadvertently. Once it does show up though, it multiplies rapidly and will usually cause suceptible types to decline within a few years if the vine is large and established, and young, newly planted suceptible vines in such now infested soils never really get going.

In my own plantings, starting in fresh, grape free ground, it took about 11 years before I started seeing phylloxera show up on the roots, but now it’s in my soils and I see it a lot. It was in my region the whole time, just not in my particular soils because no host had been present. I plant and pull seedlings every season so I see roots a lot, and noticed it right away when it started to show up. For my purposes, I am glad to have it, because that helps me select for tolerant seedlings, but if you are growing for fruit, it’s death on suceptible types once it’s there. Rootstock is a super simple and cheap preventative measure, so for a vineyard, using rootstock if the cultivar is susceptible is just common sense to protect a significant investment. For a backyard grape in fresh soils with no history of being planted in grape, eh, up to you. If I cared about keeping it alive long term I would still get it on a rootstock myself, but the investment is small, so if you feel like taking a chance, you are risking far less, and you can often get away with it with just a vine or two for a long time. I’ve added a couple of pics of it on leaves and roots so people will know what it looks like.

[NuttingBumpus]

I am re-reading Lon Rombough’s excellent, “The Grape Grower” and that is his brief: any vinifera needs to be on an American root to offset phylloxera. It is less of a concern in very sandy soils (such as in my back yard), but as SethDoty has pointed out, it might be only a matter of time…

Rombough approaches grafting like most folks: do it. You’ll be glad you did. If I get the chance, I will give it a whirl. I’ve succeeded with apples and plums…

I really don’t have room for grapes in my space, but might find a friend who is up to letting me build a tall arbor and starting a couple of grapes growing. Rootstocks are easily obtained and a small investment in effort for potentially hundreds of years of good fruit. BTW, although Lon died 4-5 years ago, his family still offers cuttings at bunchgrapes.com.

[SethDoty]

@NuttingBumpus

It is less of a concern in very sandy soils (such as in my back yard)

That’s generally considered to be true, but the soil the phylloxera in the pictures came out of broke down as 83% sand, 15% silt, and about 2% clay, so pretty sandy. Phylloxera didn’t seem to mind it at all. I would also mention that many, although not all, hybrid grape varieties are tolerant to phylloxera, and grafting is not needed for tolerant types. Own root is perfectly fine in that case.

[NuttingBumpus]

Exactly, “less of a concern,” without guarantee.

Rombough’s book describes a number of American cultivars and some crossed with vinifera that tolerate phylloxera.

[GrapeNut]

@NuttingBumpus

some crossed with vinifera that tolerate phylloxera.

General consensus when I was in grad school at UC Davis was that vinifera confers genes for phylloxera susceptibility, so any hybrid with vinifera parentage can potentially be overcome by phylloxera even if the other parents are resistant, e.g. the AxR1 fiasco. I don’t know how thoroughly this has been tested though, and other rootstocks with vinifera parentage like O39-16 are still resistant to this day.

[NuttingBumpus]

This apple guy finds the ease in which grape cuttings can be rooted fascinating. Gotta find someone to collaborate with to grow some American grapes on their own roots.

[GrapeNut]

Not all grapes are easy to root. Many of the species are difficult, especially from dormant cuttings. Most cultivars have vinifera or another easy to root species in the background somewhere though.