Winekist and Red Vein - Rootstock/Vigor Questions

Both Winekist and Red Vein are on my list to graft this year. I have one of each on MM111 from Trees of Antiquity and just cut my scions today. TOA says both are naturally small trees: 7-12 ft on MM111, but I suspect that’s just their number for “small”. My Red Vein is pretty small and started bearing reliably after ~4 years, but I’m not sure how much of that is the MM111 and how much is the scion. The Winekist is new last summer so I don’t know anything about its performance yet.

Just how small are these trees though? Should I put them on more vigorous roots so they hopefully get a bit bigger? Does the stock I graft onto even matter, or should I just plan to let the scion root? What would they do on their own roots? Beyond that, if they’re so tough and naturally dwarfing, what happens if I use them as rootstock?

I’m just curious, sounds like it could be a fun experiment. I was planning to graft all my scions to G.210 this year, but wondering if something more vigorous is a better choice for these supposedly low vigor scions. Any thoughts/musings/answers?

My winekists will only be heading into their third summer, but they impressed me with very rapid growth if that has any relevance for you.

Palmer, how big are they and what rootstock are they on? Of course I have no idea what variables growing in AK throws into the mix either…

I have 2 Red Vein on B.118. They’re of low vigor, but were just grafted spring 2018. Winekist was just budded last summer so too early to comment on those.

Winekist had normal growth the summer I grafted it (on Malus Bacatta Mandshurica), but the next summer the biggest one jumped to about 6 feet, which is unusual for my trees as my soil isn’t too great and summer is short. I grafted three winekist trees and the second year they pretty much outgrew the 20 or so other varieties that are the same age.


Palmer, that’s very interesting. Did you pick Manchurian Crab for crazy winter hardiness then?

Andysmith, I’d be curious to know how your trees do. B.118 should definitely be more vigorous than my g.210. I’m worried they’ll be midgets on g.210!

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I believe it is currently the most commonly used rootstock in this area. Previously Renetka was highly recommended, but seems to have lost some of its desirable traits over the generations. The future is a bit up in the air now as Lawyer Nursery was a big supplier and they are shutting down.

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Both Winekist and Red Vein Crab bloomed this spring. Both trees are small so I am not allowing them to fruit. They remain of low vigor, even on B.118. I just transplanted them from the nursery bed this spring so it will be interesting to see how they progress now that they have some space of their own. I now have 3 Red Vein Crabs on B.1118. Winekist was also transplanted to the orchard rows and I grafted 2 additional trees (again, B.118), but the two grafts failed. I’ll graft them again next spring.

I ended up putting all of mine on B118 and I’m glad I did, they’re all pretty small.