Worth growing American persimmon if Asian does well in your climate?

You’d start growing plums. Many plums get brix higer than 23 easily.

Also, like others said, comparing same fruit American persimmon to American persimmon, apple to apple would be better.

@HighandDry, Neil - how high the brix are your apples, please? You could help open Smith’s eyes.

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Well, as just average values for bell curve ranges…I think they seem pretty fair?

And based just on my own actual taste tests, yea, American Persimmons have been far sweeter than any other fruit I’ve ever tasted (certainly including any apples or plums)! I mean really, they taste like sweet marmalade and just blow anything else away… Or has anyone tasted something sweeter than them?


Are you sure it’s safe to invite me to post about my apples, Tip? I might write a novel. Make that two!

I shall preface my first book with some dull, but meaningful information:

  • My refractometer was delivered in early December of 2017, so I only have measurements from that point onward (thank your lucky stars, or this would, at a minimum, be a trilogy).

  • Bears decided it would be a great idea to start tearing through my deer fence in mid-October (and trending earlier annually…had my first intrusion two nights ago!) in four of the past five years to eat stuff and generally make me angry and scare my cat, so outside of 2016, my late hanging apples have all been harvested weeks early, the latest on October 12 last year when I could no longer tolerate the bear depridations that began on 9/27. Those apples would have measured higher Brix, which, as you will soon see, is silly.

  • Finally, since I have been invited to comment on apple Brix, I’ll start with a plum and some grapes and pears.

Damson (unnamed variety from a scion exchange in Sacramento, CA) 30-31 Brix in 2018. They were better and possibly sweeter the year before, but I didn’t have the refractometer before they were turned into the best jam I’ve ever eaten.

Grapes - harvested 9/28 because the bear was just smashing through the bird netting and pummeling my vines, otherwise, like my late apples = sweeter:

  • Himrod, Suffolk Red, Venus - all 23 Brix;
  • Edelweiss - 25 Brix;
  • Glenora - 27 Brix


  • Bartlett - 16-17 Brix;
  • Belle Luctrative - 18 Brix
  • Warren - 18 Brix (best pear last year, just wish the tree would produce more)
  • Seckel - I measured three different fruits between 9/27 and 11/1: 26, 28 and 31 Brix. In spite of the sugar, they weren’t as good as in past seasons. There were some textural issues and the fruit was far more tannic than usual. Next time they’re like this, I’ll be making perry, though with those Brix levels, It’ll be boozy as all get out.

Drum roll
Apples, in no particular order. I won’t include every apple off of my trees , but I’ll highlight most of my best performers to date–some day I’ll sit down and mash out a Scott-esque fruit report on all of my varieties, but that day is not today. Harvest dates are for 2018, as I can’t find where I recorded that info in 2017, though the latest was October 15, a few days after the bears arrived.

  • Esopus Spitzenburg (10/6 harvest) - uniformly 20-21 Brix the past two years. It might get a little sweeter with another couple weeks on the tree, but won’t be one of my sweetest.

  • Claygate Pearmain - I reported on this apple at length in another thread. It makes two distinct apples for me, one larger, juicier, smooth skinned, less complexly flavored and earlier in the season (early-mid September) - 17-20 Brix. The second type is smaller, drier (though still pretty juicy), much more complexly flavored, partially russeted, hangs on the tree far longer (early October) and better keeping - 22-24 Brix.

  • Kidd’s Orange-Red (2017, none in 2018, early Oct. harvest) - 27-28 Brix. Excellent, but more acid would be welcome.

  • Rubinette (10/4) - 25-27 Brix. Excellenter than Kidd’s. More acid and complexity to balance that sugar.

  • Sweet Sixteen (9/26) - all of the cherry Jolly Rancher flavor presented in 2018. Muy fantastico! 16-20 Brix. This apple tastes much sweeter than it measures. If it hit the same numbers as my sweetest, it’d probably be intolerably cloying.

  • Orlean’s Reinette (10/10) - 24-26 Brix. So complex and so good, one of my two or three best tasting apples, though it’s turned out to be a biennial performer for me. Better thinning would help, but I can’t bring myself to strip off too much of this delectable apple when my tree sets well (grafting a second tree this year).

  • Golden Russet (10/12) - 26-29 Brix. It appears to be a little too hot here for this apple to develop it’s acid side as much as it could (my best GR’s were my first small crop four years ago-- they had a better acid/sugar/juice balance and complexity than anything since). Still a fine apple here, but not as good as fellow russet Orlean’s Reinette).

  • Suncrisp (10/12) - 21-22 Brix. Acid bomb off the tree, but sweet and fruity by mid-December. Very productive.

  • Calville Blanc (10/10) - 21-23 Brix with one 28 Brix outlier. This is a fantastic apple at it’s best, but is inconsistent here fruit-to-fruit to this point. Maybe the tree will settle in as it ages.

  • Melrose (10/12) - 21-22.5 Brix with a small surprise apple that the bears and I missed harvested on 10/25 hitting 28 Brix. this tree first cropped in 2017, so only two years to report on, but this may be my best apple once the tree starts producing full crops (only 20-25 fairly large fruits each of the last two years, but looks like I’ll at least double that this year). It exceeds its good reputation in my climate by a healthy margin and is truly excellent, with fine, juicy flesh of considerable complexity, probably my best-flavored apple last year.

  • Suntan (mid October in 2017; no apples in 2018) - 26-27 Brix. My first and only crop was in 2017. These were the best apples I’ve ever eaten. Suntan’s reputation is as a high sugar, high acid, high intensity, super complex apple. It is all of that! It’s not for everybody, but for those who enjoy high flavor, in my orchard it was incredible. It’s supposed to be a bit fussy, and last season’s zero apples in spite of decent blossom numbers indicates I might not always be happy with its production, but… I grafted another tree last year, so if they end up bearing in alternative years, hopefully they don’t pair up.

  • Wickson (10/12) - 21-22 Brix. This little apple is probably my most bear-affected and would get much sweeter if I could leave it on the tree another three to four weeks. I harvested on 11/2 in 2016, which ended up being the magic number. It was outrageous that year, with high sugar, acid and complexity. In spite of the comparatively high Brix for last season’s apples, it’s flavor is just not there when harvested in early/mid October.

  • Margil (10/12) - first harvest from this variety last year. I saved it for last because it managed the highest Brix measurement among my apples thus far at 30. I found a small bag of these in my refrigerator in early April and they were still firm, crunchy and pretty tasty. No Brix measured on those, however.

I have scads of other apples I could toss out here, but think four hours to read this is long enough for all of you who stuck it out this far. Late frosts and Bears aside, I’m very fortunate that my growing conditions allow for some unbelievable expressions of flavor and sugar to shine in my fruits, especially my apples. Swing on by for a visit in October and we can taste our way through the orchard (installing an electric fence this year and maybe getting a tiger or at least a mountain lion to replace the scaredy cat; bears beware!).


Thank you very much. Now, I am ready to read your volume 3 :smile:


Now that I’ve participated in The Great Persimmon Thread Hijack of 2019, I feel some responsibility to steer it back toward its original topic.

I’m not a huge persimmon fan. Discuss.


I copied and pasted @HighandDry’s apple reviews to the Best Tasting Apples thread so we can continue this post on persimmons and any apple enthisiasts can read up his review inan apple thread.

Thanks, Neil for posting your review.


Just kidding (sort of). I am not a fan of fuyu persimmons. If you waded through my apple post, you may recall that I’m a fan of intensely flavored apples. This applies to almost all fruit I enjoy. If it has sugar and acid living in relative harmony, I’m likely to at least enjoy putting it in my mouth. Fuyus are far too one dimensional and bland for me. (The Wife likes them…perhaps that’s a commentary on her poor taste, but then I’m left to wonder why she chose me…stop!)

I like American persimmons more, as they are more intensely flavored, though still too one dimensional overall, and the texture is not my favorite. I have not eaten many persimmons in my lifetime, so there’s a chance I’ll find one that I do like if I have the opportunity to taste some of those mentioned here.

Because I do love The Wife and wish for her to not completely regret her probable poor spousal choice, I planted Nikita’s Gift a few years ago, hoping a hybrid would deliver something that each of us might enjoy (plus, she does make a mean persimmon cookie that I love, and more of those in my life would not be a bad thing). Unfortunately, Nikita’s Gift doesn’t seem to like it here, the second time this variety failed to make it through its first winter. The rootstock survived and I grafted Prok to it and, later, added Rosseyanka, hoping that between an American and a hybrid, I’ll find something I enjoy eating out of hand. If not, they are beautiful trees and I will still have the cookies and a wife that maybe loves me just a little bit more.


I think persimmons taste like eatimg honey…too sweet. I like a little less. Asians it is!

Thanks for all the replies so far… and I don’t mind any highjacking as long as it still involves talking about fruit!

In at attempt to bring this back to the subject at hand, does anyone have any specific American persimmon variety recommendations for maximum differentiation from Asian persimmons?


I will bore long term persimmon fans by telling you that my favorite is Garrettson. I am one of those who find selected varieties of American persimmon to be so much more complex and interesting than the Asian persimmons I’ve tried, which is quite a few. I live in an area in which it is easy to grow either one. I think Meader is mainly selected because it is reliably self-pollinating. I like the flavor, but I wouldn’t choose it over Garrettson or my other reliably delicious American, Early Golden. I have H-118 growing. I think it is flowering this year, so hopefully I’ll have more information later. Saijo is one of the more interesting Asian persimmons, and I tried to graft it this year. We’ll see how that turns out. It also is earlier and more reliable in ripening in mild climates like mine. I am also growing NC-1, I think it’s called, because it is supposedly the earliest ripening variety. We’ll have to see on that one too. I used to grow Asian persimmons, but I once I tasted the good American ones, I just lost all interest.
John S


JohnS, do you feel American Persimmons are better than say Hachiya? To my taste buds – Saijo and Hachiya are roughly equivalent in quality – Saijo doesn’t have any trace of astringency when fully ripe but the little astringency in Hachiya doesn’t bother me.

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Just my opinion, but yes. Saijo and Hachiya are quite good, but a good American persimmon is spectacular. Quite complex in flavor. A gem. A marvel.
John S


Thanks for the recommendation! I hadn’t heard of Garrettson but will add it to my list!

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My plan for next year is to add the following varieties. Any input on experiences with any of these varieties would be appreciated!

Lehman’s Delight (100-46)
Barbara’s Blush (WS8-100)

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This starts at 7:30

Dates are routinely over 70 brix.

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Can you pick wild American Persimmons when orange and ripen on the counter or do you have to wait till they fall to the ground? There are a couple of trees near me that I see are ripening now.

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It will ripen on the counter at yellow stage.



Thank you! Picked a few wild ones. A couple were soft so I tried them. The flavor was very good!. It still had plenty of astringency though. The amount of pulp is small compared to the size of the fruit and seed.


You can freeze them and the astringency will go away when thaw. They still taste good like persimmon popsicle.