Hello All. I am new to the forum, and I wanted to introduce myself. I am located north of Dallas, TX near the Oklahoma border. I have heavy, black clay soil, and we get around 900 chill hours each year. We also get weeks of 100 degree weather in July and August. I currently have a 6 year old orchard consisting of peaches, apricots, pears, and my favorite, apples. I finally got some apples off of my trees this past fall, and I was super excited about how they tasted. Since my family typically goes through 3-4 apples a day, I really want to expand my apple production, reduce our apple bill at the store, and have a lot of fun on the way.
I ordered about 20 bench grafted trees of various varieties from Kuffel Creek the other day which I am excited about. I also would like to try some bench grafting of my own this spring. I was thinking about getting some G890 and maybe a few G41 rootstocks from Cummins. My brother tells me to stick with the M111 (which is what the vast majority of what my orchard will be on), but I would like to have them start producing in 2-3 years vs. 5+ years. I was wondering if anyone in the South has had much luck with these two Geneva rootstocks or if the dwarfing rootstocks and the heat shut their growth down and they end up being less precocious/productive than an M111?
On a different note, I have a long term apple project in mind that I want to start this year. I would like to plant apple trees on a seedling rootstock (P18) around our ranch to serve in part as shade for cattle (10-20 years down the line), to produce apples, and because I think it would be cool to have big apple trees scattered around that my kids and grandkids can appreciate. My plan was to plant and mulch them this winter, put a 5ā cattle panel & chicken wire around them to protect them from cattle and rabbits, and then water them 1-2x per month over the next few summers to get them established. I was wondering if I should go ahead and bench graft them this year, or let the seedlings get established before investing in sion wood to graft them? I thought that if I waited, I could graft several of the main branches with different varieties on the same tree to help with pollination. I was also wondering what varieties people would recommend in this scenario in North Texas? I donāt expect to have a lot of time to care for them like the trees in my orchard, but I can probably go by once or twice a year to prune and train. Other than that, I donāt expect to be managing for pests and diseases, and the trees need to be pretty hardy on their own.
Thank you in advance for any advice you can offer. And thank you for all the contributors to various apple topics; I have learned a lot reading them over the past few weeks. This is a really cool forum.
Hi Chaos, Iām new to the forum too, first post! Iām in North Florida 8b and Iāve been trying to grow apples for a few years. I ordered some trees grafted to g11 and g41 from Cummins a few years back and theyāre mostly surviving but not thriving. I planned to do and intensive planting with about 30 different varieties in sort of an espalier setup. Long story short I never installed irrigation and I think the Genevaās need it in our heat. Iāve also done some grafting to Genevas and m111. Similar take rate but for my dry sand I think Iām going to go with m111 for everything and still plant close. Have you checked out Big Horse Creek Farm? They have a great website with some really cool information. Also there is a book, out of print I think, called āOld Southern Applesā that I recommend you get if you can.- FYI, I use the whip and tongue graft mostly with good success- victorinox budding knife($15) and āBuddy Tapeā (+ -$40 but worth it and it will last forever) Good luck with your orchards and congratulations on getting apples! - John
Iām in North California inland valley climate, with a lot of 100+ days in July and August. My apple trees on G890 do well, I donāt really see any difference between them and trees on M111 and M7 wrt how they do in summer heat. All my trees are on drip irrigation (usually no rain here from April to October). I have not tried any rootstock that is more dwarfing than G890.
Apples are so easy to graft that you will do fine either way. I personally would bench graft just because itās easier and faster to graft when youāre seating at a table than when squatting around a small tree in the field. Anyway, I have done it both ways with nearly 100% success. The quality of scions (how fresh and healthy is the wood) is probably the most important factor.
Since youāre planning to not paying much attention to these trees, it would be easier to maintain them with one variety per tree. Having multiple trees with different varieties should be good enough for pollination.
Congrats on getting your own apple trees and getting started. If apples can be grown in the Bahamas or in the Congo in Africa, you certainly should be able to in Texas.
Full sized trees on seedling stock, or Antonovka, or P-18 or B-118 or M-111ā¦are more apt to be there for the grandkids than planting on dwarfing rootstocks. Little dwarfs wonāt last for 40 to 100 years, and also are easily run over by cattle, eaten by deer, etc. I suspect the winter hardy rootstocks will still do well in Texas, but if you can find local orchards and they will share information, that would be a good thing to do.
I would probably order the rootstocks by the 100-count or more, plant them, and worry about grafting them over the next 5 years or so. Do a few benchgrafts that you have time for this spring, and just get the rest of the roots startedā¦you can convert them to whatever variety you want to grow on them later. (Or, with the Antonovka, enjoy the summer apples they will produce, if you never get around to grafting anything to them.)
Having 3 or more varieties per tree would make pollination easier, unless you have beekeepers in your area. A few wild bees will not set a heavy crop, but will probably give you a few apples. Having a pollinator limb, or a crab apple will help.
I put together a list for a friend in Harris County, Texas about a year agoā¦on varieties he might try growing: (There would be several developed in Israel to add to this list).
Anna,
Akane,
Arkansas Black and āchildrenā thereof.
Aunt Rachel, Bramley, Dulaās Beauty, Fuji, Lady Williams, King David, Mollieās Delicious,
Terry Winter,
Shell of Alabama,
Williams Pride
Reverend Morgan,
Arkansas,
Dorsett Golden
Ein Schmeir
King David
Dixie Red Delight
Braeburn
TropicSweet
And probably most any apple that will properly rebloom at your 900 hours of chilling.
Should include a bunch more options than what would do well in Houston.
Thank you all for your suggestions. I think I am going to try a dozen G890s and maybe 2-3 G41s around my house. Really all I am looking for in the dwarfs is to get apples earlier. The M111 and seedlings will be for the long term. I ordered a lot of those listed varieties listed by BlueBerry from Kuffel Creek, but I will research the ones I didnāt. I also read Kevinās book, which I learned a lot. Iām primarily concerned with scab, fireblight, and insect damage. It seems like the paper wasps come in mid summer to āstingā the fruit (or whatever it is they do), then grasshoppers come to nibble holes in them where the wasps were in late July, then lots of Japanese Beetles come in early August attracted to the open apple flesh left by the grass hoppers to finish them off. I was spraying those beetles multiple times to keep them off of my apples at home. So, I would really like varieties that will hold up against those pests. Mollies Delicious probably yielded the best for me this year, but the beetles attacked it the worst. Iām guessing because the fruit ripened around the time they were swarming in on my orchard. Fuji was next to get attacked. Gala, Pink Lady, and Granny Smith didnāt get hit nearly as bad. So my instinct is that I need a thicker skinned apple that ripens later in the fall to hold up against the insect pressure.
I was actually wanting bundles of the Antonovka trees. Where is a good place to get them? I think I agree with you BlueBerry on waiting to graft them except for the ones that will be closer. My thinking is that establishing a tree in Texas is 85% of the battle. Iām not worried about grafting to them later on, since even my boxcutter & masking tape grafts took last year when I was just practicing. Plus, I should probably have my first branch come out at 5-6ā off the ground if cattle will be shaded under them. There used to be an old apple orchard on one of the places we used to own, but I was a child when I saw it. But I tend to think the trees were over 20ā high, so 5ā seems fairly appropriate to start the grafts on branches that high. Hopefully, they will grow large and tall. My brothers raise bees ,and we plant hundreds of acres of Hairy Vetch on our farm which attracts hoards of wild bees. Iām not particularly worried about pollination.
You are right about that. They will eat anything you donāt want them too. Hence the cattle panel. Maybe I can plan them around some e-fences and use a little poly wire and pigtail posts to keep them away. I usually hate trees next to fences, but I actually like Apple trees, and they donāt have thorns.
Wow, I think I paid about $90 for it. Iād say it was worth that, but this is price gouging! If you can get it youāll enjoy it. Lee Calhounās descriptions are awesome.
Itās a great resource, and Iām surprised at how quickly the second edition went out of print. I paid less than $50 for it at Amazon in 2015.
According to BookFinder, the Canadian Amazon store is still taking orders for it at about $80 US and expects to have it in stock again within 1-3 months. Hope thatās accurate.
It is definitely a good book to have, if the price is right. I think I paid about $45 at B&N because I had a discount code to use at the time it was in stock.
It was the second time I bought that book. The first one I literally wore out. The book spine cracked and the pages were falling out. I have it highlighted , underlined, and dog eared it to where it was worn out. I took that edition to Staples so they could put it in a binder for me to use. I did not want to do the same thing to the second book I bought.
Hey Chaos, Iām down south of you west of Fredericksburg Texas. I planted about 12 apple trees last spring in a bottomland/cold pocket. The soil is deep, but oh, there are so many rocks. Itās kind of a starter trial before I buy more trees. There isnāt alot of good information on apples in Texas so I decided to do some trials before I buy more plants. Iām growing Akane on G.890, Arkansas Black on G.41, GoldRush on G.222, Williams Pride on G.210 , Reverend Morgan on M111 and Red Rebel on M111. After the first summer I can say the Geneva rootstock Iām most impressed with is the G.890. It showed only a little heat stress. The Goldrush on G.222 showed severe heat stress, and I doubt itā not the Goldrushās fault because there is a guy in Mason with them in his orchard, and he gets apples every year, even though he is warmer than me. The other G. series showed some heat stress (leaf curling). The M111s were alot smaller, and I think one has burr knot (grrr), but they grew well for their size.They look like they are about a yearās behind in growth behind the others.
Iām not so much afraid of lack of chilling, though my trees have kept their leaves unusually long. My main fear is cotton root rot. When it happens, to help avoid it killing all the trees in a season, Iāve got pomegranates in between the apples (they are supposed to be tolerant) and very wide 22/24 foot spacing between trees. Trees are also heavily mulched.
Thank you for the info. Fredericksburg is a really nice town. I drive through there sometimes on my way to San Antonio. All of my apples are on M111 purchased from Womack in 2014. Iām thinking they should really start producing this year, but none of them are really big yet. Fuji is maybe 10ā yāall at the very top. The rest are 6-8ā. I have burr knots really bad on my Gala tree but that is it so far. Iāll probably graft it on one of these Geneva rootstocks. Thatās good to know about the g890 working fairly well where you are. Should be worth a try north of Dallas. Iām gonna get a few g41 just to see what they do as well. Iāll report back for the Texas growers wanting to go that route. Cotton root rot hasnāt killed mine yet, and Iām pretty sure cotton was grown all around my house. Hopefully, we both can dodge a bullet there. One thing I should have done from the beginning was really consider our local soil deficiencies. I was looking somewhere on the internet about Apple soil requirements, and I need to put down 180lbs of actual P/acre, since it is so deficient. I know P is important for flower and fruit development. I was out spreading a few 5 gal buckets full of 18-46-0 the other day. I am also really deficient in K needing about 100 lbs of that. I need to get some 0-0-60 here soon to fix that problem. Maybe that will help the m111 grow some more structure In the coming years. For these new trees, Iām going to try to set them up for success.
What Poms are you raising? I have 3 Russian varieties that Womack sells. I get fruit about every other year from them. I assume you grow lots of peaches down that way in peach country? I have a heavy fruit set on mine every spring, but getting a bunch of pretty peaches to eat at harvest is eluding me. Borers get in them pretty bad and wasps like to sting them as well. I need to do more research because my spray schedule isnāt working.
Yay, five more years then on the M111s.:(
Iād like to hear more about the G.41s. I have Arkansas Black on it, and the trees look healthy but they did have some heat stress. Not bad heat stress like that Goldrush on G.222.
Iām kinda suspicious about cotton root rot. Iāve seen a few perfectly good yard apple trees here in Fredericksburg but I know itās in the area because our peach growers lose a young peach tree every now to it. Iām hoping that by mulching the trees heavily and keeping a high organic matter content around the roots will help to avoid it.
Goodness! Thatās a lot of phosphorous. I umā¦didnāt do a soil testā¦I probably should have. I did do a foliar nutrient test last year on the leaves.
I have āAl-Sirin-Narā, āNikki Rā¦ā, āRussian 18/Texas Redā, āKandaharā, āHosuniā, and āKazakeā. It was probably a mistake to plant the pomegranates there. I checked them this weekend and it looks like I have a bit of topkill on most of them again. I canāt tell 100%, so hopefully more will make it to February. Itās really a terrible place to plant pomegranates.
Nope, I donāt grow peaches. I buy them from our peach growers and save myself the hassle. I know those suckers would freeze. Thatās kinda odd about the wasps. Have you seen the TAMU Homeowner Peach Spray schedule? You can find it here:
Oh, and I checked my apples this weekend, and the buds are swelling(Silver tip?) on most of the varieties, except for Williamās Pride. Grrrrā¦Itās only been around 600 chill hours. They were supposed to wait until 800.
My early evaluations of G41 and G11 are they arenāt drought tolerant. The other Geneva roots, the jury is out on.
B-9 and B-118, no issues with drought or flooding so far.
Arkansas Black on G-41 is apt to ārunt outā and quit if you let it overcropā¦.it did on M7 on me.
The Plum Curculio is what gets my peaches. I didnāt realize I had to spray so early for them. I sprayed about a month after petal fall this past spring, and my peaches were loaded up with them at harvest. I hate dodging a maggot in my peaches. Iāll get after them earlier this year.
I have an Al-Sirin-Nar. Iāve gotten pomegranates from it a couple years since I planted it in 2014. They taste pretty good. Salavatski is the other one that I get them off of, but I think the seeds are quite a bit harder. You should be able to raise them down there. I donāt think mine have frozen all the way to the ground since I planted them. I do mulch the base with a lot of hay/straw during really cold events. But these last few years, I havenāt even done that with temps down to 10 degrees or soā¦
Weather has been nuts. 20 degrees in mid October, then itās been like a warm fall since then until now. Then today, we got a 5" rain with this cold front. Crazy! Gonna be fun feeding cattle in this sloppy mess tomorrow.
