Saw this on the Florida Wine and Grape Growers Association (see last ink )
the price is a lot more because of UPS shipping
just 40 miles out side of Daytona Beach to out side of Chicago IL…
I plan on Using Jack Kellers wine recipe , and am getting
** a 30 lbs box with grapes ships for $87.53**
(15 Lbs Fry grapes and 15 LBs Carlos (white muscadine or known as scruppernong)
(note to moderators It could go in fruit in the kitchen ,
but also diverge into something else – If I do I will link it to this .)
If I use pirate ship couldn’t I just mail her the mailing label to save money
I ask maybe others may want grapes, and save on shipping for themselves
(the rest of this is off topic no not important)
My printer broke , so would have to run to the library
Seem to not want to go through the trouble
I may get more for a friend as well
Oh this Lady is intuitive too
I told Her My Friend likes these grapes (shortly)
and right after she Said the Cherokee likes these Frozen ones (after they pick theirs)
My Friend I just brought up is part Cherokee
He will be very happy with some of these grapes though
(without having to go back to Tennessee later in season )
I need to find a good source of seed which has not been damaged in any way, freezing, mechanical or Sodium Sulfite, etc.
Do you have any suggestions for a good source of bulk Vitis Rotundifolia seed aka Muscadine & Scuppernong?
I would prefer it from strong self-fertile hermaphrodites like Cowart & Carlos.
Freezing muscadines should not harm the seeds, but they will need to be cold stratified for ~ 3 months before they will germinate. Selfed seed may produce more runts from inbreeding depression, but a fair amount of cross-pollination does occur in self fertile grapes and the stronger seedlings can be selected. Carlos and Fry are pure muscadine. The only hybrid muscadines that have been released are Southern Home and the newer Bloodworth seedless hybrids like RazzMatazz and Oh My!
Robert Dunstan was one of the first to successfully get muscadine/bunch grape hybrids past the F1 stage, by throwing a bunch of vinfera pollen on an old F1 hybrid, N.C. 6-15. N.C. 6-15 was assumed to be completely sterile. Zehnder later used Dunstan’s material to create P9-15 (parent of Southern Home) and many other extremely disease resistant grapes.
I believe you, but why does the freezing not count for cold stratifying
I have a Idea the seed goes to dormant
I was wondering this about persimmon seed as well
(seed looked intact to me after being frozen –
(only a few slipped past the food mill
so not much experience or even remember )
Does this apply to all seeds for being frozen (that need cold)
Do they need more cold stratification in above freezing ?
But If I get seeds I will have quite a few
Instead of the 3 months a few will be taken out for good measure I will follow your advice , but also experiment (since so many also boiling water treatment , and near boiling / soak I have a few to sacrifice )
My Mistake about Carlos , and fry being Hybrid of V. vinifera
(European wine grape)
(I used to Know a bit about this , checked reference before righting that, but I suppose it was wrong Or I mis understood
(I do so in Hurry with Multiple reference)
(the web pages probably wrong though seeing how the internet is)
(although could of stated in the (A) Hybrid program ,
and misunderstood in that way)
(I do not consider Muscadine Muscadine a hybrid,
but guess it is a hybrid interspecific –
so maybe I should say I believe it to be Europe/ different chromosome american hybrid.)
(I am babbling but I really feel stupid for that one mix up
(I know that hybrid stuff)
Seed dormancy is complicated, but most seeds that require cold stratification need cold and moist conditions. If the water freezes, it’s no longer moist. Many types of seed dormancy are due to inhibiting substances in the seed coat, which need to breakdown before germination can occur. Freezing is good at keeping things stable. There also may be physiological changes in the embryo that require some degree of metabolism, which doesn’t happen below freezing.
The process needs to produce hormones.
Can’t do that when frozen.
Needs to be (34°F to 42°F) for 100 days.
Oils, glycols, phenols, glycerols, terpenoids, hormones, Citric Acid, Malic acid, Tartaric acid, all help protect different species, from different amounts of cold.
If most of the water is evaporated out, then freezing is less harmful to most but not all species of seeds.
Sitting in moisture, saturated, makes even grape seeds less freeze tolerant.
Question is were they flash frozen?
How cold did they get?
If you don’t know & can’t find out, then grape seeds that were dried without freezing are best.
You can cold treat before planting.
Freezing and thawing may help breakdown inhibitors. It shouldn’t hurt with plants adapted to temperate climates with lots of freezing and thawing during winter.
Growth hormone treatments like GA3 can break seed dormancy in some species like kiwi, but not in grapes. It does help promote higher percentages of germination, and may reduce stratification time a little, but you still need about 3 months of moist cold. Colchicine is a mitotic inhibitor. It can double chromosomes, but does nothing for dormancy.
Removing seed coats can often remove dormancy immediately (not sure about grapes), but it’s technically difficult.