Saw this on the Florida Wine and Grape Growers Association (see last ink )
the price is a lot more because of UPS shipping
just 40 miles out side of Daytona Beach to out side of Chicago IL…
I plan on Using Jack Kellers wine recipe , and am getting
** a 30 lbs box with grapes ships for $87.53**
(15 Lbs Fry grapes and 15 LBs Carlos (white muscadine or known as scruppernong)
(note to moderators It could go in fruit in the kitchen ,
but also diverge into something else – If I do I will link it to this .)
(from what I’ve learned in the past is the late Bob Zehnder of Summerville, SC
(was the first to breed these Muscadine with the European grapes
Muscadine / mustang / shuttleworthii have different chromosomes then Most grapes (Vitis) has n=19 basic chromosomes, while (Muscadinia) has n=20
)(See Jack Keller link one Genus or two ) https://web.archive.org/web/20120318043539/http://www.winemaking.jackkeller.net/vitis.asp
I’ve only grown seeds from muscadine fruit being stored in the fridge short term ,
but not frozen whole in fruit which may split the cells of the seeds in the watery grapes that were frozen .
When I asked Her about it she said She tried different methods , but has not germinated them, but fruit that fell has grown .
I also think the ones that fell had not bore fruit (male maybe)
I cannot speculate , but my guess is they do not sprout as willingly as wild ones
(from pure Muscadine as in Carlos is not pure )
By the way did you see that new Muscadine named Majesty
almost as big as a Golf ball (quick link I have a few more )
If I use pirate ship couldn’t I just mail her the mailing label to save money
I ask maybe others may want grapes, and save on shipping for themselves
(the rest of this is off topic no not important)
My printer broke , so would have to run to the library
Seem to not want to go through the trouble
I may get more for a friend as well
Oh this Lady is intuitive too
I told Her My Friend likes these grapes (shortly)
and right after she Said the Cherokee likes these Frozen ones (after they pick theirs)
My Friend I just brought up is part Cherokee
He will be very happy with some of these grapes though
(without having to go back to Tennessee later in season )
Thanks,
I need to find a good source of seed which has not been damaged in any way, freezing, mechanical or Sodium Sulfite, etc.
Do you have any suggestions for a good source of bulk Vitis Rotundifolia seed aka Muscadine & Scuppernong?
I would prefer it from strong self-fertile hermaphrodites like Cowart & Carlos.
Ideas?
Freezing muscadines should not harm the seeds, but they will need to be cold stratified for ~ 3 months before they will germinate. Selfed seed may produce more runts from inbreeding depression, but a fair amount of cross-pollination does occur in self fertile grapes and the stronger seedlings can be selected. Carlos and Fry are pure muscadine. The only hybrid muscadines that have been released are Southern Home and the newer Bloodworth seedless hybrids like RazzMatazz and Oh My!
Robert Dunstan was one of the first to successfully get muscadine/bunch grape hybrids past the F1 stage, by throwing a bunch of vinfera pollen on an old F1 hybrid, N.C. 6-15. N.C. 6-15 was assumed to be completely sterile. Zehnder later used Dunstan’s material to create P9-15 (parent of Southern Home) and many other extremely disease resistant grapes.
I believe you, but why does the freezing not count for cold stratifying
I have a Idea the seed goes to dormant
I was wondering this about persimmon seed as well
(seed looked intact to me after being frozen –
(only a few slipped past the food mill
so not much experience or even remember )
Does this apply to all seeds for being frozen (that need cold)
Do they need more cold stratification in above freezing ?
But If I get seeds I will have quite a few
Instead of the 3 months a few will be taken out for good measure I will follow your advice , but also experiment (since so many also boiling water treatment , and near boiling / soak I have a few to sacrifice )
My Mistake about Carlos , and fry being Hybrid of V. vinifera
(European wine grape)
(I used to Know a bit about this , checked reference before righting that, but I suppose it was wrong Or I mis understood
(I do so in Hurry with Multiple reference)
(the web pages probably wrong though seeing how the internet is)
(although could of stated in the (A) Hybrid program ,
and misunderstood in that way)
(I do not consider Muscadine Muscadine a hybrid,
but guess it is a hybrid interspecific –
so maybe I should say I believe it to be Europe/ different chromosome american hybrid.)
(I am babbling but I really feel stupid for that one mix up
(I know that hybrid stuff)
This Is Important I suppose
I have had a bunch of expensive seed freeze in buckets
I should of re stratified
(you know you get these thoughts when you accidentally freeze whole buckets )
maybe I should re cold treat them to see
Oh no not enough room (will get thrown out)
They will be fine already cold hahah.
This year I plan to dig a deep trench 2 feet deep for 55 degrees to bury seeds for cold stratification
(already had one dug(even with Injury) , but something else went into it.
While On subject I
I will be doing with clayish thick soil with a little sand added.
My experience some that survives frozen roots (pawpaw in bags)
Perlite ones did not (but bad records lost labels misplaced stock as well./)
This Susan Grape Owner is nice
as well very accommodating .
She also mailed them Early for me.
Also
I asked if they had Rent a car 20 miles from her In deland Florida
She said would send me all the details (numbers(
That is I could fly to Orlando Florida (visit some people I meet)
take the Sun rail to Deland (last stop )
Drive 20 miles to her (in middle of state) to pick up grapes
(of coarse I could just fly 40 miles away to the beach of Daytona
I looked it all up but do not know anyone there I may still though.)
Seed dormancy is complicated, but most seeds that require cold stratification need cold and moist conditions. If the water freezes, it’s no longer moist. Many types of seed dormancy are due to inhibiting substances in the seed coat, which need to breakdown before germination can occur. Freezing is good at keeping things stable. There also may be physiological changes in the embryo that require some degree of metabolism, which doesn’t happen below freezing.
So do on another question you think it would be worth while to have moist seed cold a few days
but warm up, the cool down
tricking the seed
Also freezing in there as well…
That would just be a experiment with different control groups of seeds
Say cold treat as normal one batch 3 months 1 month , and 2 month
Other batch
Cold treat 1 week thaw cold thaw warm
other batch other stuff (different times)
You think you could force them
(or just fun to do (at least for me)
I know you could add colcinchine (hormone )
to skip stratification …
(note have also experimented a lot with seeing stress on seeds (just grocery store lemon and stuff like that as well as tropical (mamey can get very cold while young(
The process needs to produce hormones.
Can’t do that when frozen.
Needs to be (34°F to 42°F) for 100 days.
Oils, glycols, phenols, glycerols, terpenoids, hormones, Citric Acid, Malic acid, Tartaric acid, all help protect different species, from different amounts of cold.
If most of the water is evaporated out, then freezing is less harmful to most but not all species of seeds.
Sitting in moisture, saturated, makes even grape seeds less freeze tolerant.
Question is were they flash frozen?
How cold did they get?
If you don’t know & can’t find out, then grape seeds that were dried without freezing are best.
You can cold treat before planting.
Freezing and thawing may help breakdown inhibitors. It shouldn’t hurt with plants adapted to temperate climates with lots of freezing and thawing during winter.
Growth hormone treatments like GA3 can break seed dormancy in some species like kiwi, but not in grapes. It does help promote higher percentages of germination, and may reduce stratification time a little, but you still need about 3 months of moist cold. Colchicine is a mitotic inhibitor. It can double chromosomes, but does nothing for dormancy.
Removing seed coats can often remove dormancy immediately (not sure about grapes), but it’s technically difficult.