Ah fair point. I didn’t consider your location sorry. Some of those you may not get enough chill hours. Would have to research out what suggested chill hours are for them.
Hmm, I’ve never heard that before… The few Winesap I’ve seen at farmer’s markets and similar, have been considerably smaller than Stayman. And the few I’ve tried were not as good IMO. I didn’t know the specific cultivar, probably virginia or old-fashioned.
If any are better though, I want 'em! 
One apple that does not get fireblight on my property is honeycrisp.
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The only thing I’ve heard is the Old-Fashioned Winesaps are less prone to crack than Winesaps. The tree I thought was a Black Twig but is a Stayman does not crack like a Winesap. The OFWS is not as aromatic per conversation with David Vernon, and the more recent strains show less green.
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FWIW, I purchased my Winesap from Trees of Antiquity. They identify it as “Winesap Original” and distinguish it from Stayman. They note that “Original” is smaller than Stayman, though I would not call it a small apple. TOA does not claim that “Original” is superior, but that is the one they chose to sell.
This was most of last year’s harvest from one tree.
My ChatGPT gives this overview . . . .
There are multiple apple cultivars that share the name Winesap, often referred to as Winesap “types” or “strains”— though they’re all descended from or closely related to the original Winesap apple, which is a historic American cultivar known for its spicy, tart-sweet flavor and good storage qualities.
Some well-known Winesap types and strains include:
- Original Winesap (Old Fashioned Winesap):
- The classic cultivar known since at least the 18th century.
- Small to medium, deep red skin, firm, juicy, spicy flavor.
- Excellent for cider, fresh eating, and baking.
- Stayman Winesap:
- Developed in the 1860s by Dr. Stayman in Kansas.
- Larger than original Winesap, often more irregularly shaped.
- More tart and complex flavor — very popular for cider.
- Triploid (does not pollinate other apples well).
- Harkness Winesap:
- A lesser-known strain, selected for specific traits like color or flavor.
- Often redder or better storing.
- Mammoth Blacktwig (sometimes linked to Winesap group):
- Very tart and firm, believed to be a seedling or related to Winesap.
- Sometimes sold under the Winesap umbrella in old orchards.
- Burgundy Winesap:
- A deep red selection, often chosen for its color and slightly different flavor.
- Virginia Winesap (Southern Winesap):
- Believed to be an older strain grown widely in the southern U.S.
- Sometimes with slightly different ripening times or climatic preferences.
- Red Winesap (Various “Improved” Winesaps):
- Strains selected for deeper red color to meet market demand.
- Often modern orchard selections of the original Winesap type.
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It should be understood the various Winesap varieties are a likely a result of sport mutations.
The Stayman is not. Stayman trees have grown out many sport mutations of its own. I’m a proud owner of one. It’s notably different from its parent tree.
Myfruitree.org shows only one know parent for the Black Twig, and it’s the Red Limbertwig. That all being said, they’re website is gone. I’m not if they’re any other DNA sites that publish results that may contradict the aforementioned Myfruittree.org findings.
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RIght. My understanding is that Stayman was a seedling of an early Winesap (female) x an unknown pollinator (male).
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Stayman is famous for its fruit cracking some places some years. My Staymans cracked when I grew it years ago here in MD.
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My next door neighbor had both Stayman and Winesap trees. They both would have issues with cracking in some years where we had heavy rains after they would reach a larger size.
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Right, that’s why I prefer to just call it Stayman. As opposed to the common Stayman’s Winesap. We typically don’t refer to descendants of other apples with their progenitor’s name like that
I had quite a few crack 2 years ago but last year had a great harvest and essentially no cracking. Have enough still in a fridge to last through next month probably…
Is your sport notably different in taste? Better or worse?
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Stayman is a family name in thiss area where it originated
Differences
- Shape. It is identical to the Stark’s Snapp Stayman. The parent tree produced apples that were more oblate/tapered.
- Lighter in color
- Earlier ripening than the parent. Fruit becomes ripe around Labor Day
- The flesh seems to be less coarse.
- Peel seems less imposing. Thinner, no bitterness.
- I would describe the flavor and eating experience as more refined. It is delightfully complex and flavorful but not overdone.
- Like the parent tree, it’s a slow grower. However, it bears generously.
- It does not taste nearly as well after being frozen/thawed. than the parent tree. That being said, the parent tree was the best of the best.
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never heard this before. everything I’ve read says that the hard flesh and late ripening makes them less prone to insect damage. is this your personal experience or something you have read on this forum?
I love century farm orchards. Never ordered from them before but the owner and I emailed a few times and he helped me pick some cultivars.
He told me Hunge can get CAR and I have Juniperus virginiana on my property that are known carriers.
He told me that too, but I’m dead set on Goldrush, which gets CAR so I’ll probably just spray for that and therefore I’m not worried about other varieties that get it.
Plus, although I do have a bunch of young cedars, I’m just going to take them all out.
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t may be because of the weather, but the last two years I have buried eggshells under my Stayman and that seemed to prevent some cracking. Can’t hurt for sure.
I know that eggshells prevented watercore in my OFWS.
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I grafted a branch of stayman a few years back. Over two years of fruiting every fruit split open. So I removed it. It’s too bad because I love the staymans ive eaten at orchards over the years. My old strain winesap, on the other hand, does not split at all.
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Stay dead set on goldrush. That teee can crank out some apples and the flavor can be very very good. Mine seem to peak in quality after christmas. I pick em in late oct early nov. You’ll be fine with a few sprays if rust is bad in your area. You may need to spray for fireblight and bitter rot, but i have to do that for most of my apples. But GR is my worst rotter here in AL. I think rot pressure lessens farther north and west.
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is this your personal experience or something you have read on this forum?
Personal experience. 30 percent is the norm with spraying. Results may vary depending on location. Keep in mind my tree is an 18’ 18 year old tree on an M111. If this were on a G41 or Bud nine on a trellis or tall spindle, it would be easier to hit the fruit with the spray. I’m planting new trees on G41s for ease of management. Tall spindle w/ 11’ wire conduit as support.
This reminds me of a question I’ve had – Is it a good strategy to plant a “magnet” variety 50-100 yards from the orchard in order to attract a pest to the magnet, where they can be killed?
I can only vouch for Shinko on your list - bore young in a pot and the pears had a butterscotch undertone. Get that one.
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