Most kaki have 6 sets of chromosomes so there could be a lot going on in just 1 individual plant.
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Most plants run 30,000 or so genes to a genome. With 6 sets of chromosomes, hexaploid persimmon is running about 180,000 genes (just a guesstimate!) so there is a lot of room for things to segregate, cross over, and jump from one location to another.
Just to be clear, if the parents are PCNA then the offspring will be PCNA but with a very modest expression of the PV trait, right?
And if the parents are PCA [I’m totally winging it here; this is very simplified and hypothetical] then the offspring can be PVA or maybe even PVNA depending on the genetics of the parents. For example, if the parents each have 2 of 6 PV genes, which may not express even as PVA (?), then some if the offspring will have 4 of 6 PV genes, which would probably be PVA.
Which mean what for us practically?
Note that we’re really focused on only two genes or groups of genes: (1) the single gene known to control NA status in Japanese PCNA kakis; and (2) the single gene or group of genes controlling expression of ethanol by seeds in Japanese PV kakis. The NA gene (1) is recessive, so it doesn’t matter how many copies there may be. The PV gene(s) is/are apparently quantitative so it matters but the phenotype should reveal roughly how many copies exist and those copies should be heritable.
Read the context of the two previous posts. The discussion is about a single persimmon that self-pollinates and what can segregate out. I pointed out that this scenario still has nearly 200,000 genes on 90 chromosomes so the level of segregation and crossover and “jumping genes” is going to deliver a royal hodgepodge.
I have to ask your credentials as a geneticist. It sounds to me, an admitted amateur, that you are grossly overstating the case. If reproduction were so chaotic, natural selection would not work. And I would look nothing like my parents and siblings.
I’m not responsible for teaching you basic genetics. Either do due diligence or go to your local college and take a genetics course.
Genes are associated with chromosomes and tend to be inherited in large chunks. This is called “linkage”.
Crossing over occurs when a segment of a chromosome exchanges place with a similar segment usually on a matching chromosome during meiosis. Crossing over is NOT rare! Each chromosome usually undergoes some amount of crossing over, some dozens of times in a single meiotic division.
Jumping genes are groups of genes (usually a segment of a chromosome that jumps to an entirely new location in the genome - meaning it moves to a different chromosome. See Barbara McClintock’s Nobel prize dissertation if you want to understand this process.
You got 1/2 of your genetics from your mother and 1/2 from your father. I’m pretty sure you look a little bit like one or the other, maybe both.
Meiosis - this is what happens when a plant produces a reproductive super cell. While not true for all plants, most produce a cell that divides into two, then into 4, then into 8 (all diploid at this stage), then each of the 8 does something different, most produce cells with a single count (haploid, 1N) of chromosomes of which 3 combine with 1 of the 3 being the germ cell and 2 of the 3 becoming the endosperm. The remaining 1N cells provide various support functions in formation of the seed but eventually disappear. A single pollen grain falls on the pistil of the flower and promptly splits into 2 cells each 1N and both move down the pistil to fertilize the flower. When they arrive at the ovule, 1 fertilizes the germ cell in the ovule and 1 combines with the 2N endosperm cells to produce triploid endosperm along with the diploid embryo. I simplified this a ton, if you want more detail, you will have to dig very deep into plant genetics. Also, I used 1N descriptions where hexaploid persimmon is 6N that divides into 3N reproductive cells. The endosperm is actually a 6N cell that combines with a pollen cell to become 9N. Yes, that is right. Endosperm in D. Kaki and northern D. Virginiana is nonaploid where the embryo is hexaploid.
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PCNA persimmons would likely not “exist” as they do currently without humans around to select them from the wild with that genetic mutation to be able to produce fruit without pollination as well as non-astringent characteristics as it is not advantageous for a species to produce effectively non-viable offspring. Just some food for thought from another amateur.
I’d agree that humans have selected PCNA varieties from the wild, cloned them, cross-bred them, and saved advantageous bud sports. So yes, PCNAs would not exist as they do currently.
But would they exist? I think so. The PCNA mutation was probably passed around for hundreds or thousands of years before some tree had 6 identical recessive PCNA genes. That tree might have been at a competitive disadvantage because animals could eat some of the fruit before the seeds matured. However, the fruit could still be pollinated – sometimes by other male-flowering PCNAs – and then ripen seeds, producing PCNA offspring.
The fact that PCNA persimmons are parthenocarpic (i.e., the fruit ripen without seeds) does not mean that they cannot bear seeds at all.
@Fusion_power – I’m not expecting you to teach me genetics. I got a decent amateur dose in college biology. And more in subsequent reading.
It’s just that you are making dramatic statements about how jumping genes in persimmons will “deliver a royal hodgepodge.” That would be news to the Japanese and Chinese and Korean scientists who are breeding persimmons with a purpose.
I’m just asking what are your qualifications to make such statements.
If they are geneticists, they will understand and I won’t have to explain it to them. Jumping genes are not that significant. Crossing over is. Read the above description, the reproductive super cell splits into 2 with the first chance for crossover, say each chromosome has 3 crossovers. Then the 2 split again to form 4 diploid cells again undergoing crossover and taking us up to 6 crossovers on each chromosome in each cell, but different crossovers in each of the cells. Then the 4 divide again forming 8 diploid cells again with potential for crossover so now we are up to 9 crossover events on each chromosome in each cell. Then meiosis splits the 8 cells down into haploid 1N cells randomly selecting which of each pair of chromosomes goes into each. At that point you have a complete set of chromosomes in each cell, but crossover changed them dramatically from the chromosomes in the parent plant.
Also, college biology does NOT teach genetics. They teach how to count grains of corn.
@Arhus76 – That’s a nice collection of scions, representing most of the Japanese releases since roughly 2005 plus Taishu and others.
What does a person have to do to acquire such scions?
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You have no way of knowing what my college education included.
I keep asking one question, and you keep avoiding it. What are your credentials as a geneticist? Three strikes and you’re out.
p.s. This exchange has gotten silly. If you want to continue, PM me.
I too took biology 101 when I went to college in 1975. I repeat my statement. They don’t teach genetics. I had to take a genetics course to learn enough to understand how plant breeding works. I bet you can still name the 4 stages of mitotic cell division. Maybe you can tell us what happens during pachytene pairing. But I also bet you had no idea a plant reproduces by producing super cells nor how they wind up forming the embryo and endosperm. Most of all, you have no idea how often a reproductive cell undergoes crossing over. If it helps any, genetics was my minor.
@jrd51 Damn, I had never heard of it. It’s a pity, I would certainly have saved time by meeting you earlier.
I thought I knew the right people. But obviously I made a casting mistake. I am very much looking forward to your next book.
Here is the description of Taïga, another PCNA with male flowers.
Taiga
“Taiga” is an early maturing sweet oyster that has a good taste and can produce seedless fruits. To be uniquely likely to occur in complete sweet oysters
October, about 10 days earlier than “Matsumoto Wase Fuyu”, which is a representative full sweet oyster cultivar with almost no tasuki fruit.
It can be harvested around mid to late. The fruit has a lot of juice and the flesh is soft, so it has a good taste. Without pollinating trees around
Stable production of seedless fruit is possible because there is little early fruit drop. Adapted to areas with high summer and autumn temperatures, the Matsumoto Wasetomi
Cultivation is possible in “yes” or “rich” cultivation areas.
Main characteristics
- Early maturity, less premature drop of fruit, and almost no damaged fruits such as rotten fruit and cracked fruit on the apex.
Seeds. - The tree vigor is about the same as ‘Matsumoto Wase Fuyu’ or a little more, and rarely bears male flowers. The flowering period of female flowers is
It is about the same time as “Yes”. Late fruit drop may occur depending on the cultivation area and year. - The fruit harvest period is mid-to-late October at the cultivation site (Akitsu-cho, Higashi-Hiroshima City, Hiroshima Prefecture), at least 10 days after ‘Matsumoto Wase Fuyu’.
It can be harvested quickly (Table 1). - Fruit shape is different in both varieties. The fruit is slightly angular and oblate, and the pericarp is orange (Figs. 1 and 2). Fruit weight, upbringing
On the ground, the average fruit size was 324g, which was larger than that of ``Matsumoto Wasefuyu’'.
Then, on average, the fruit weight was the same as “Matsumoto Wase Fuyu” (Table 2). - The sugar content is 16-17%, which is about the same as “Matsumoto Wase Fuyu”. The pulp hardness is lower and softer than that of ``Matsumoto Wase Fuyu’',
Because it contains a lot of juice, it has a good taste (Table 2). - Cracks on the apex and flattened fruits rarely occur. There are more soiled fruits than ``Matsumoto Wase Fuyu’’ (Table 2), but the original
The cause is the cloud-shaped contamination that occurs near the stem. This cloud-shaped contamination does not affect shelf life or taste. - It has a long shelf life for an early maturing cultivar, comparable to ``Matsumoto Wase Fuyu’’ (Table 2).
- Due to its high parthenocarpic power, it is possible to stably produce seedless fruits, which are in high demand by consumers, without the need for pollinating trees (Table 3). na
Oh, in order to produce seedless fruit, an environment without pollinating trees is necessary.
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I can share these varieties with whoever sends me the Lucy Rose apple or the feijoa Waingaro in exchange.
I’m not looking for much and I already have too many persimmons.
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@Arhus76 –
<< I can share these varieties >>
How does a person acquire these scions directly from the Japanese source?
A translation for the Kitaro variety. Another PCNA, but no male flowers.
A new variety bred in Tottori
(…/sample/fruit5/Kitaro07[5760x3840].jpg)
1994 (Heisei 6)
More various crosses were made, and it was a breed that was selected and bred from among them.
Application for registration in 2009 (Heisei 21) as an original variety of Tottori Prefecture, registered as a variety in 2010 (Heisei 22).
In 2012 (Heisei 24), it is a new breed that has just appeared in the Chugoku region and Kansai markets.
vinegar.
However, according to an academic paper published in 2016 by a staff member of the same research station, the pollen parent used was ``Amashu’'.
Instead, it was raised by the National Research and Development Agency, Agricultural Research Organization, and its use in breeding was prohibited.
Tottori Prefecture and the National Agriculture and Food Research Organization share the rights to Kitaro.
As a result, it seems that it will be possible to cultivate in areas other than Tottori.
● Kitaro’s breed registration data “Summary of characteristics”
(…/sample/fruit5/Kitaro11[5760x3840].jpg)
The variety registration database of the Ministry of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries is described as follows.
Straight neck finally found
cause
open
“The size of the fruit is large.
No or weak clarity of shape and groove on fruit apex, no or weak clarity of stripes on fruit apex, no or no fissuring of fruit apex
Weak, the shape of the upper side is slightly downward, no or weak sagging, the size of the stalk relative to the fruit is small, stalk
The width of the piece is slightly wide, the length of the fruit peduncle is short, the color of the peel is orange, the color of the flesh is orange, the presence or absence of brown spots on the flesh, seeds
The size is rather small, the shape of the seed is oblong, the female flower blooms late, the maturation period is quite early, and the astringent taste of the fruit is
always null. " (excerpt)
(…/sample/fruit5/Kitaro22[5760x3840].jpg)
Features of Kitaro
Kitaro is a large ball weighing an average of 300g and is said to have an average sugar content of 17%. Shape seen from above
It has a round shape with no corners and a flat shape with not much height.
According to the test site that was developed, in the case of stoneless fruits and fruits with a small number of seeds, cavities are likely to form in the core of the fruit.
It is said that the surroundings of the cavities may turn black, so it is necessary to avoid this and plant pollinating trees together so that seeds can be produced.
Obviously it is possible by being less known than you.
But I spend less time giving good advice.
I act more than I speak.
I wonder if when you meet a beautiful woman in a street with a man, if you ask her how this man managed to seduce her.
We have problement all our secrecies, me I like to speak with the ears of the persimmons.
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