I’m very unlikely to grow any of these varieties myself. They are too late and my region is too cold. I was just hoping you’d help the community.
Sometimes people are kind. They don’t hold out for a quid pro quo. I’m sorry I expected too much from you.
I consider myself to have helped. Knowledge being more important, I made progress on 2 levels.
I think that’s already good. I don’t see what more you want. I don’t do miracles.
<< I don’t see what more you want. I don’t do miracles. >>
Just answer the question. Can anyone buy such scions from the Japanese? If so, how?
If it is not possible, just say so. I’m not expecting a miracle, just honest communication.
Your question raises a problem… how do people get varieties…
As for the majority of varieties… you can’t buy it… you have to know peoples.
So the solution of taking out money does not work.
But it still costs a lot of money and time. All collectors will tell you that.
Friends in the right place at the right time. Most of all, have a drink, share a joke, enjoy life a little when you can. I’m confident we will have Taishu in the U.S. within the year. The gears are turning.
Well, I’ve acquired LOTS of scion wood for apples, pears, persimmons and figs. Some scions in each species came free from friends, some came through trades with strangers. But the vast majority of apples and persimmons came from nurseries. And some figs were purchased from individuals. I have no issue with entrepreneurial sellers.
As we speak, I’m in the process of packing fig cuttings that I am sending to strangers for free. So you don’t always have to “know people” and it doesn’t always cost “a lot of money.”
I practice the same way, but with international, special cases, customs fees…etc the bill is salty.
Its already here. Within a year or three, it will become common.
But I’m not a fan of many PCNA persimmons – they are inbred and all taste the same.
The point of Taishu in the US is not to have another late-ripening PCNA but to back-cross it to JT-02 and produce a cold tolerant NA hybrid. That’s not a big deal in Seattle but it could be game-changing in the northeastern US.
This may be happening already. It is about 99% certain to happen with the next 2-3 years.
Sure. I’d just like hobbyists (not me) to have the opportunity to produce a good NA hybrid.
Your own comments demonstrates the need. PCNAs are “inbred and all taste the same.” That taste is only moderately sweet and mildly flavored. It should be a priority for breeders to produce a hybrid PCNA with either American or Asian PCA flavor.
The best thing about a prospective Taishu x JT-02 cross is that is could produce a NA hybrid in one generation.
Unless I’m missing something, Taishu (or any other good PCNA variety that produces male flowers) might also be crossed with PCA females to produce PCNA varieties with PCA flavor. That would take a minimum of 2 generations.
The big challenge is producing something that ripens early AND is non astringent. You want early because even astringents will become soft and non astringent once the season wears on. They just wont be crunchy any more. There is no difference between a late PCNA and an intermediate/late PCA in a short season climate except that a late PCNA will likely not develop enough sugars.
Based on my limited reading, it is very hard to produce an early Kaki — like Izu.
Now you are compounding the problem by wanting American genes in it.
That may take many generations.
Is it the crunchy texture with American flavor you’re after?
I will ask a friend yesterday.
Some of these varieties are protected by Japanese law and are prohibited from leaving the territory before 2039…
You must suspect that there is no easy solution by buying them. As you pointed out, these are felt varieties.
The translation I wrote “Ai Quifeng” is wrong…
It’s Ai-Shu-Ho actually.
It’s one of jiro’s last mutation.
A few years ago I showed you Jiro weighing more than 500 grams… it’s this variety.
A big PCNA.
Among PCNAs, the best prospect seems to be Soshu, which is descended from Izu and even earlier.
Many Americans ripen on the early side, so with careful selection of parents it seems possible to maintain or enhance any earliness.
As an example, Taishu is not early but its offspring JT-02 appears to ripen earlier, apparently even with or ahead of IKKJ. [This is my inference from reports. I haven’t ripened enough JT-02 here to know for sure.]
Bottom line, it seems very possible to produce a hybrid that ripens earlier than the typical kaki.
As to what I’m after: The primary goal is better cold hardiness in a kaki-like fruit. The secondary goal is enhanced flavor – whether Asian or American – in a non-astringent fruit. The tertiary goal, which follows from the second, is the ability to eat the persimmon and enjoy the flavor before it is mushy ripe. Personally I don’t need crunchy but something firmer than the gooey fully ripe astringent American or Asian. JT-02 already has American genes. We’re one cross (and a lot of evaluation of the results) away from a non-astringent hybrid. This step will not take many generations.
Yeah, I thought possibly the Japanese were trying to protect local commercial growers by restricting distribution.
I often talked about it with my boyfriend.
He told me that the varieties are protected that some had sold them outside of Japan… and that the state had set up a system of deterrence.
He tells me that South Korea and China have taken their strains.
Production is regulated, each variety is authorized for a specific canton. For example, not all growers have the ability to produce Kinokawa for example.
What you want is already available today.
Nikita’s gift is quite firm when ripe. Definitely firmer than JT02 or Kasandra. Perhaps it is also amenable to alcohol treatment as it is 3/4 kaki. It might even be hardy where you live.
There are newer varieties such as the Gora series and Chuchupaka which are both supposedly firm when ripe. These are much more cold hardy than NG. They are as large or larger than many kakis.
With many of these, it might be possible to do an alcohol treatment to remove astringency if you want to try eating them crunchy.
Of course, if you want to do a breeding project, that is always great thing. But there are existing solutions to your stated goals.
Well, maybe I didn’t express the desiderata perfectly. I’d agree that various hybrids achieve #1. Kassandra must, I assume, present some of the traits of Great Wall. JT-02 definitely resembles its various PCNA ancestors. Of course, both are smaller.
But more critically, both are astringent. I want to achieve #2 while preserving #1 – so the tree should be both cold hardy and non-astringent. That’s why I’ve been pushing in particular for a back-cross of JT-02 with Taishu. I’d really prefer to never have to bother with ethanol or CO2.
So maybe the correctly (re)stated goals are:
I get that many people might find the hypothetical cross relatively bland. It would be 3/4 PCNA / 1/4 American. For that reason, I’m also dreaming about PCA x PCNA crosses. If people who rave about the flavor of Asian PCAs are right, then we should be crossing those PCAs with PCNAs, no? It could take only 2 generations to produce a NA hybrid – PCNA x [PCNA x PCA]. Shouldn’t we be working hard to spread the non-astringency genes?
The 3 gora are not more resistant than Nikita’s gift…
Sosnovkaja and Tchoutchoupa are very resistant, followed by Sofia’s gift.
Cherniaev must be of the same level as the gora.
Pasenkova’s memoir is interesting. It should not be forgotten.
Kimshkaya 55 has also been evaluated for its high cold resistance.
I have no information on Marush which I transplanted this year.
The Christian gold makes large fruits and should be like the gora.
NB1, NB2, NB3, are new hybrids which should also be at the level of the goras for the cold and also produce large fruits.
Etc…
Rosseyanka 2, which is the sister of Nikita’s gift, offers the same resistance to cold.