This article says that Japanese breeders moved to this approach in the 1990s.
<< To avoid problems of in- breeding, researchers at the Grape and Persimmon Research Station (GPRS) of the National Institute of Fruit Tree Science (NIFTS) began new approaches in the 1990s of crossing PCNA cultivars of Chinese and Japanese origin and obtaining PCNA offspring from the backcross of (PCNA x non-PCNA) x PCNA (Yamada 2005). >>
Are there any PCNA out there descended from any of the PVNA varieties like Kurokoma used in past crosses?
@PharmerDrewee ā To my knowledge, no. My understanding is that all PCNAs that originated outside the breeding programs (Japanese and Korean) descended from a very small number (like 7) of wild PCNAs as sports. But I might be missing some accidental PCNA x PCNA crosses. And all the PCNAs released by the breeding programs are reported to be the result of deliberate PCNA x PCNA crosses.
I think itās an impossible outcome for a PVNA parent to produce a PCNA offspring. At the risk of beating a dead horse, Iāll explain why:
The trait for non-astringency in PCNAs and the trait for non-astringency in PVNAs are controlled by different genes.
a. PCNAs lose all of their astringency well before ripening, whether or not there are seeds.
[At some times or in some varieties there seems to be a small amount of astringency. As you pointed out yourself, Fuyu can display some PV, which means that there is at least a little astringency. On the other hand, as I noted in the PVNA thread, other PCNAs such as Tam Kim donāt show any evidence of PC.]
b. PVNAs lose their astringency because the seeds release ethanol, which interacts with the inherent astringency in the flesh.
Hereās the key point: For PV to work, there has to be an underlying astringency (tannins) with which the ethanol produced by the seeds can interact. So a PVNA is basically a PCA ā astringent ā but with ethanol-producing seeds.
Since the PVNA has genes for astringency, which are dominant, any cross of PVNA x PCNA could not possibly be PCNA.
No, I think you misunderstand me. Taigetsu and Taiten were bred from Kurokuma and Taishu to prevent inbreeding with the hope of using them to further breed back to PCNA. The PCNA gene and whatever genes for PVNA are independent.
Please refer to this. I was wondering if any fruited from a more advanced cross and if the breeders achieved their goal of PCNA fruit with less inbreeding.
I did misunderstand. I thought you meant in the 1st generation.
The short answer is I donāt know. From the article we know that the 2nd generation produced some trees with markers for PCNA. The article also states that āSato et al. (2013) reported that PCNA offspring from the cross between āTaigetsuā or āTaitenā with āKanshuā had significantly small fruit weight and were likely to cause fruit cracking at the fruit apex.ā So evidently some fruit was produced but it was poor quality.
Hereās an excerpt from the abstract of the Sato article:
<< We compared fruit traits between PCNA and non-PCNA offspring derived from two backcrosses āTaigetsuā or āTaitenā Ć PCNA (āKanshuā). Mean fruit weight was significantly lower in PCNA offspring than in non-PCNA offspring in both backcrosses. Cracking at the fruit apex occurred more frequently in PCNA offspring than in non-PCNA offspring fruits, whereas there was no significant difference in cracking at the calyx end and in fruit ripening time. Thus, the PCNA trait influenced on fruit weight and cracking at the fruit apex in the backcross offspring. >>
I have not seen any releases of new varieties based on these crosses or even any reports of good hybrid fruit.
@jrd51. Thank you for all the FREE persimmon, fig, pear, and apple scions you have sent me on various occasions. I wish I had more needed varieties to share with you!
I grafted some Japanese persimmons toda. Wood was not ideal but hope it will take.
Taishu, Kitako, Aishuho, Taiho, Midai, Taigetsu, Taiga, Kuroama/Tone Wase, Yoho, Taiten and Betera 3
Did anyone in the US succeed in getting this variety to grow? Seems like quite a few people bought Taishu trees that ended up failing from chatter Iāve seen.
Dax said a few months ago that his is alive and growing.
Where can I buy taishu scion? thanks
Thatās a question lots of people would like answered.
Honestly, I have no good answer. A few of us bought bare root trees, labeled Taishu, from the same source. Many of those trees died. Mine lived but didnāt grow much. If Daxās tree lived, then we are the only two I know other than the seller. Respecting privacy, I wonāt reveal her name. If she wants to sell scions, I guess sheāll say so. Thereāre probably a few other owners in the U.S. but nobody I know who has gone public.
I canāt speak for Dax. My own tree did not grow enough to require material pruning, never mind harvesting of scions. If Iām lucky, there may be a little extra wood this autumn but demand is huge so I canāt make any promises. Check with me in October.
Hopeful at least one of the 4 Taishu grafts I made this evening end up taking. Very excited to breed with this variety and very appreciative that I was able to source it.
It looks like Taishu is now well distributed atleast among hardcore collectors.
I did 3 grafts already and will do more if those fail.
My tree has one good (but short) shoot, the central leader. I took a few inches off the top and three weeks ago grafted one new Taishu tree on a potted DV seedling. Itās siting under lights in the basement ā 70ās and sunny! Buds seem to be swelling, so fingers crossed.
The parent tree is in a pot outside. Itās still cool here ā temps got down to 32-34 F a few nights recently. But like most of the other Asians, Taishu is breaking bud.
Not quite, I still havenāt get my hands on a stick yet!
Youāre in Europe, correct? There are some folks who have it there from my understanding. You just have to know who to ask.
Iām in Virginia!
I know of at least three people that I know they have it but is small tree, hopefully next year 
Iām confident it will be more widely available in the next year or so, along with a few other varieties sought after on the forum.
Showing some growth on a few budsā¦ Iām hoping this was long enough to heal! This one has been sitting in the sun on my south facing deck getting plenty of heat.
Interesting.
