What’s your experience with spacing for espalier on M111?
I’m going to be planting some apples on M111 rootstock. I’m planning on spacing 9-10ft apart and training them espalier (most likely 3 tiers, but maybe 4). Based upon Dave Wilson Nursery’s backyard orchard culture diagrams (nonspecific to rootstocks, but all their trained/sold espalier apple trees are on M111), it seems like this should work. I don’t understand how this would be much different than their 4 in 1 hole way of planting (except perhaps less competition since roots won’t be quit so close)
I am going to be starting an calville blanc espalier on M11 this Spring. I couple of people here indicated that they thought that would work. this will be my first attempt at an espalier so this will be interesting. I am going to follow along on this thread to get smarter about this.
I had first thought I would do it on a G41 but a couple of people pointed out that calville blanc is not considered a vigorous cultivan…so M111 was suggested.
@MES111 has a lot of experience using M111 in an espalier, and with great success. I’m not sure what spacing he uses but from what I’ve seen, I would think 9-10’ should be fine and you could probably even go a bit closer if you wanted. (I have a Belgian fence with 2’ between trees - mostly on G41 - but that’s a somewhat different setup.)
In terms of the difference between espalier and the 4-in-1-hole approach: I don’t claim to be an expert, but doesn’t the 4-in-1 approach functionally amount to a significantly more expensive way of approximating a single multigraft tree? The advantages of espalier over 4-in-1 are basically the same as the advantages of espalier in general (principally, better exposure to sun and air flow and more efficient use of space). And the disadvantages would be the same as well (principally, more time and trouble to set up and maintain, though to some degree it’s a matter of what kind of time and trouble you prefer to take with your trees, and I’m guessing that a 4-in-1 setup would generally require somewhat more maintenance than a single freestanding tree).
My only comment is that there was a very interesting post in the Holistic Orchard Network Discussion Forum (unfortunately not very active sute) about crowding apple trees for dwarfing effect:
Where are you located? If you’re in California 9b, then most likely you will need to take additional measures to protect your apple espalier’s bark against sun scald. Apple tree bark is easily damaged by California sun during the summer, so consider white painting the trunk and parts of main branches not shaded by the leaves.
4 in 1 hole is a completely different concept — essentially it’s a method that DWN developed to sell as many trees as possible to people who cannot graft.
@MES111
That’s super helpful! Your orchard does look amazing - and it’s encouraging to envision what my mini orchard could look like with time. I think I’ll follow your lead and space mine out at 9ft, and know that I can allow some overlap if needed.
@JinMA@Stan
I’m still very new to backyard orchards. I just planted my first few trees in March 2020 (Burgundy plum, Santa Rosa plum, Katy Apricot, Blenheim apricot) as 4 in 1 hole. I wasn’t initially planning on buying a lot of trees, but a little impulse spending at the local nursery and now I had to figure out what to do with them. It was a learning experience. I was under the impression that close proximity helped reduce vigor by competition between the multiple trees. They all are doing well, but I’ve come to realize I probably would have been better off with some multi-graft trees. I do wonder if I may be able to keep them smaller (than a multi-graft) this way though. The reason I had mentioned the 4-in-1 hole method was because it goes against most of what I’ve read about spacing fruit trees apart (Trees of Antiquity, where I’ve pre-ordered some apple trees, recommend spacing 12-16ft apart). I am planning on painting them with “Go Natural Paint” that I picked up locally from GreenAcres (Sacramento/Placer, CA) - it’s brown color, but they say it works.
@Elhanan: I’m pretty new to this, too, and don’t have a lot of experience with stone fruit or multi grafts, so I’ll leave those subjects to people who know (much!) more than I do.
As far as controlling vigor with apple trees goes, I would agree with Mike that pruning is the way to go there. The good thing about pruning is that you can calibrate it and prune more or less as you need to (though as Mike says, there’s a system of pruning with espalier that guides a lot of the decisions you need to make).
You may also want to look into using scoring and notching to train your trees. In my experience, those techniques are the best way to stimulate and direct secondary branching in espaliered trees, significantly better than just heading branches back (which tends to generate less predictable and frequently less desirable results, particularly with some varieties). One thing I wish I had known when I was getting started!
One more thought: if you do plan to multi graft your espaliered trees eventually, you may want to start by planting relatively more vigorous varieties to form the lower tiers of the espalier and then plan to graft relatively less vigorous varieties to form the higher tiers. (Other people probably have more insight into the best way of doing this than I do.)
I think planting one tree in a hole with 4 varieties grafted on is a more practical way to go if you aren’t in the nursery business. However, I do understand the impatience to start harvesting multiple varieties ASAP, but ultimately fewer trees in more space is a lower maintenance and perhaps more productive way to go.
Yeah, I’ve been trying to think through all the setup options for my espalier apples.
I have 7 apple trees ordered and it sounds like they may be ready to ship late December - early January.
I have an area of about 50ft to place them. One option is to plant 3-5 espalier, 9 ft apart, and follow similar setup as you.
I was wondering if the following would be a reasonable setup, using 6ft spacing between trees (so I could espalier all 7), but offset the cordons (alternating cordons between adjacent trees would be 12 inches apart). Is this too close? I’ll attach a diagram.
I see no reason why you should not go with the 6 foot spacing.
If people can put 4 trees in a hole why not 6 feet apart.
REMEMBER, you are growing for your own use. You are NOT a commercial grower who needs to maximize production. But even so, you will be swimming in fruit. below are 1/2 harvests from just 3 trees
BTW., I would start the lowest scaffold at least 20 inches off the ground. And I don’t understand your 18", 24" and 54" vertical spacing. My sweet spot was 20-22 inches off the ground and then 18" between scaffolds. I found that I id not have to offset the scaffolds. In several places I have adjoining trees using the same wire so I have TWO scaffold arms growing in the same space. With espalier there is plenty of light exposure so neither of the scaffolds sharing the same wire shade each other to any noticeable effect.
Don’t overthink it. As the trees grow, just look and listen to what the trees are “saying” to you as they grow and then adjust accordingly.
There is no “ONE METHOD” that will work the same for every person in every location and tree, nor will the same METHOD will work the same for the same person in different locations and trees.
I probably am over complicating it. Just trying to think how things will be years down the road if/when scaffolds get really big. I was pondering 5 tiers set 12” apart, starting tier 18” off the ground, and each tree only take 2 or 3 scaffolds each (so that trees scaffolds would be 24” apart, but 12” from the adjacent trees scaffold). I should probably just keep it simple. I appreciate your experience and input.
I got a good laugh out of your orchard philosophy. I think I went totally overboard this year. The apples are just part of the equation (I’ll soon be at 28 planted fruit trees on my 1/4 acre suburban lot). My wife just rolls her eyes now when I tell her that I think I’m done adding to our fruit tree collection.
I was wondering what happens to espalier pruning once the trees age (15 years, 25 years, etc.). Does the trunk get enormous? Can a branch with fruiting spurs continue functioning that long without replacing? If you do replace, how long does that spot on the trellis remain unfruitful?
I am glad that I’m not the only one with a wife rolling her eyes!!! I have 8 in the ground and at least 15-20 planned for next year (also 1/4 acre lot). Maybe you can give me a few pointers on how to keep finding room for more trees! At least this addiction, er I mean hobby is definitely healthier than some other choices…
It was a learning experience. I was under the impression that close proximity helped reduce vigor by competition between the multiple trees. They all are doing well, but I’ve come to realize I probably would have been better off with some multi-graft trees. I do wonder if I may be able to keep them smaller (than a multi-graft) this way though. The reason I had mentioned the 4-in-1 hole method was because it goes against most of what I’ve read about spacing fruit trees apart (Trees of Antiquity, where I’ve pre-ordered some apple trees, recommend spacing 12-16ft apart). I am planning on painting them with “Go Natural Paint” that I picked up locally from GreenAcres (Sacramento/Placer, CA) - it’s brown color, but they say it works.
