Very good points Roger, thanks for the advice! That fencing isn’t an eyesore at all really. I ordered some dwarf and semi dwarf varieties (mostly hard cider) in hopes of quicker output. Also about 100 full size trees counting my grafts. Would you say the dwarfs will always need fencing? I saw on your profile you are into cider making. What kind of apples do you like for that?
I am only an amature grower and cider-maker, well, since 2018, and no expert. However, to answer your question: Yes, I think those dwarfs–and even some seni-dwarfs–will always need fencing. And they also need staking, and also weeding around the trunks to prevent grasses from competing their shallow root systems for nutrients. Standard-sized trees, on the other hand, will have much larger root systems (or so I have read), and, once established, they are better able to survive and thrive without chemicals to kill the weeds (so they are better suited for organic orcharding).
I do not have enough experience to recommend any apple varieties for cider-making. I’ve made some really good cider–really good!–from the unknown varieties on 50 year old trees in my backyard, but my other trees are only one, two, and three years old and so it’ll be a while before I can recommend anything. And what I am able to grow here will not be the same as you anyway. I am in Zone 3, short season Montana. All my apples are zones 1, 2, and 3, and early to mid-season varieties. There may be a few, however, that may do well in both our locations: Wickson crab is said to be good for cider, and seems to grow well so far for me. I also have Hewes Virginia crab, which I grafted on one of the 50 y/o trees and got 4 apples the next year (this year) which are wonderful tasting little golf ball-sized apples–really tasty! This year, I grafted about 40 varieties onto the 50 y/o trees which I hope to get apples from in a couple years. And I also have 120, or so, bench grafts I did this year: (60 Bud-118, plus about 30 each Baccata and Ranetka rootstocks), another 20 or so two and three year old (Bud-118), and on all these I have about 60 varieties, many which will grow in Alaska.
I would be happy to share my list when I have more time, but…it’s late tonight, and I gotta go.
Best regards…
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Uh oh. Marshall fan? Don’t worry, I won’t hold that against you. Haha
Cheers
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RayW,
Sounds like a hobby orchard you want. That is what many of us have.
We tried wire cages and ripped them out soon after. It made it impossible to get under to weed and greatly restricted pruning/ shaping the trees. And the deer and 'coons still got in. We put up electric fence on a timer and we were liberated!
Keep in mind just a few trees will net you way more fruit than you can eat and give a way!
To get fruit fast, grow peaches. We had planted 3 Red Haven with 1/2 dia trunks/2 ft tall, and one tree gave us 2 peaches that first year. After learning how to spray by year 3, we had nearly 1500 peaches from those 3 trees. Peach trees grow so fast
Buy small trees so you can shape them. Many trees I see at farm/big box stores, trees have bad shapes with tight crotches. Hard to fix many of them.
Study how the prune/shape trees, keep them low, we don’t use ladders…
Spraying. You will most likely have to spray. There are many posts here on what and when. It’s very frustrating to see a good crop forming and see it all filled with worms. I spray every 10-14 days. We had a lot of rain this year and it made it difficult to keep up the protection. Spray timing is very critical, you miss an early treatment and it’s all over. Over time you can select trees to spray less to see if you can get away with it.
Good luck and have fun
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Very good points Paddy! I never even considered the thought until now that smaller is better. Those larger trees at the box stores are probably more likely to become stunted and disease riddled due to neglect. Also for peach trees in someone’s yard, the type you speak of sound way more aesthetically pleasing.
Sound like an exciting project! Looks like you are just north of huge commercial apple orchards in the Winchester, VA. area so apples should do well in your area. Commercial peaches are grown in this area too.
Did not see any mention of orchard site planning which is important for your success especially peaches. Lots of good info is available on this topic.
Deer can destroy your trees in no time. 8 foot high tensile electric fence will solve your problem but its expensive. T posts and wire fence around each tree did not work for me. A slant fence like the one described by Penn State is also effective and less expensive but its difficult the manage the weeds.
Its more expensive to grow apples on dwarf trees but they produce fruit much sooner. They also require more knowledge and mistakes made early are not easily corrected. MM111 or similar are easier to grow but take a lot longer to produce fruit.
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blueberrythrill,
Site planning is a good idea. We made the mistake of having our sour cherrys near to our peaches. Our first spray of the peaches is while the cherries are still in bloom, we need to tarp one side of the cherry trees.
Like tomatoes, do you want determinate or indeterminate, pick all season or get it done!? We have thought we should have planted 3 different types of peaches, instead 3 Red Havens. I’m glad we have just 2 weeks of peach madness
Our electric fence is a bit of a hybrid. The bottom is wire fence, 2"x4" openings, up to 20 inches. Hot wires every 6 inches up to 5 feet.
Why the lower wire fence? Raccoons and weeds. The fence allows for weeds to grow for a few weeks before weedwacking is needed. The fences acts as a ground so when raccoons climbs, face hits lowest hot wire.
Not sure the proper name, but are hot wires are white poly material. But any white cord above 4-5 foot will work. A jumping deer is “off the ground”, flying deer will not get zapped, so no need for hot wires high off the ground. Electric fences are to teach deer, go some where else.
If this is a hobby orchard, a electric fence for 150 ft by 150 ft would be under $300. Tee post can be spaced 20+ feet apart
Our system stopped the deer and raccoons, now it’s just chipmunks!
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Hope your new 85 acre project is moving forward like you expect.
I failed to mention a good book that will provide a lot of help with some of your questions and some other important topics. It discusses animals and pasture management in some detail and site management including slope and aspect too.
The book is called “Owner Build Homestead”. Written in the early 70’s by a very experienced homesteader who was also educated as an architect. Although some of the info is outdated, it covers many important topics in detail with references to the source of the information. Lots of drawings and concise explanations like your would expect from an architect.
He was a big advocate for building your own house and worked with some non mainstream building techniques in real life and in his book called “Owner Built Home.” I believe he was killed when one of these experimental buildings collapsed on him.
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I use 5’ high fencing from Red Brand and for every 50’, I can make 5 cages that are 3.2’ in diameter. They are a little bit of a pain if you have to reach into the cage, but my hand/arm fit. I weight them down with rocks or bricks but they can easily be removed while the tree is small by just lifting it up. Mowing around and inside the cage would be a pain though. At some point I can remove it when the tree is tall enough.
I have also found used fencing in local online classifieds, Facebook Marketplace in particular. They go fast, but I’ve noticed that sometimes people just list a bunch of things as “garden equipment or supplies” and the fencing is in a random picture but not specifically listed. If it’s 4’, I make the diameter wider.
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Thanks for the recommendation! Sorry about the delayed reply, it’s been a couple weeks. I just looked up this book and there was actually an article about it in Mother Earth News. Definitely looks like a good one. It appears he was into sustainability before it was even cool.
That is a great idea and thanks for the picture, looks awesome. Used fencing would surely be the best option, it never even crossed my mind. While fences are essential, I’ve been struggling with the thought of putting $20 fencing around $7 trees. Im gonna start hitting up market place and local farm sells right away.
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Here’s some advice I’d repeat to you that I shared in another thread (to which a lot of people contributed a lot of good advice that you may want to read over):
As a beginner, I was too skeptical of fruits that I wasn’t familiar with. I thought hardy kiwis, for just one example, surely wouldn’t be very good or wouldn’t grow well here. Wouldn’t everyone else be growing them already if what these oddball nurseries were saying were remotely true? Similarly, I figured what did I need fancy, big, exotic persimmons for when I had native persimmons. I’m growing more Asian and hybrid persimmons now than pretty much any other fruit, and I still appreciate American persimmons as much as ever, but they’re plenty different. Some of the unusual things I’ve tried haven’t turned out great, but a lot of my favorite fruits to grow now are fruits that I had never even tasted before when I started planting trees.
And here, from another thread, are some thoughts I shared on the potential for growing organically that might be helpful to you:
https://growingfruit.org/t/organic-vs-synthetic/34033/6?u=cousinfloyd
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I second this train of thought with enthusiasm. The first time I discovered the www.ediblelandscaping.com website in 2017, maybe 2018? my world of grocery store fruit was thrown out the door. The craziest part was that the fruits I SHOULD know about, that take very little care and grow native, I had no idea about (pawpaw and persimmons). That was the beginning of my fruit journey and I’ve expanded my list of things to grow significantly since then, avoiding the stone fruits simply because they take more work. I have a job and a child to raise now, and I still don’t have time to do all the hobbies I’d like to and I’m only growing on a tiny suburban lot. I can’t imagine having time to spray regularly and maintain all my other interests, let alone pruning, grafting, and all the other things that come with starting a backyard orchard.
I’m not saying I won’t be spraying (because I will be), just that I plan to limit it for simplicity sake. It sounds like you have a great setup and I look forward to seeing the results once you get started!
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You can view a free PDF version of the book on line if you check around. Parts of a book called “5 Acre and Independence” are good too, but the info is very dated from the depression area. Another good one is “Living on a Few Acres” which is from the 70’s by folks at the US Department of Agriculture… All these books probably provide broader information than you asked for but you could do a lot with 85 acres. Are you growing for personal use or do you have plans to sell a portion of what you grow?
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Same here exactly on pawpaws and persimmons. To that I’d add jujubes as well. Didn’t even know what any of these were
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I am beginning to wonder how many persimmons a person can eat each day without experiencing digestive distress. I hope it’s in the dozens. I also started jujube growing with the others but didn’t mention it as it’s not native. Mullberries are the other obvious low maintenance fruit, and they might be a fantastic fit for an 85 acre property. Just pick a good tasting cultivar hardy for your zone and let the birds help spread the wealth!
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I would say it’s better to have 10 great producing trees you can keep up with than 100 you can’t afford to spray and keep up with the pruning.
Had a HillBilly Hotdog or in Lesage? 
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Hybrid persimmons sound awesome, it would be a great addition for wildlife too! I’m assuming they are pretty low maintenance compared to stone and pome fruits. Are they fairly fast growing?
Mulberries are a superfood I never even considered. I’m very intrigued now!
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Yes you’re definitely right on quality over quantity with trees. I have had hillbilly hotdogs, it is about 30 minutes from me. That place is an absolute goldmine lol. Zero overhead and that line is always out to the main road.