Black Locusts are my favorite flowers because they taste the best! They taste like Vanilla Sweet Beans with floral notes, not far from a Casaba Melon. There’s apparently lots of Diveristy to work with, there’s White Flower, Pink & HOT Pink Flowers of different species. I’ve only tried the white flowered species (Robinia pseudoacacia) but I know the other species (All kind of a Species Complex btw) also have edible flowers.
Also just look at the seed Diversity of my Local Black Locusts, so many colors! So many Textures & Speckles.
With all that diversity in mind, I’m sure I can breed a sweeter flower. I’m only aware of White, Pink & Hot Pink Flowers of the Robinia Genus. Is it possible for other colors with different flavors to show up as I’m crossing different species?
I don’t know the answers to your questions, but I’m curious if people have made efforts to select strains that show fast straight growth, since the species is so useful for fence posts.
Since many complain about the suckering habit, it would be interesting if there are any populations that show a reduced amount of suckering.
By the way, if you find anyone with particularly good flowers for culinary use, you may want to consider requesting root cuttings so you can get a true clone for your breeding work.
In the mid 90’s there was a Black Locust Initiative where a strain called Haudenosuanee sp? , long steaight fast grower, it’s seed coollected and dispersed among those subscribed to it. I obtained some of the seeds and dispersed them in a favorable area on state land but haven’t been there in 20 yrs. Gotta return
Yup, Those Straight growth traits have already been bred for in the Cultivar “Nyirségi”. It comes from Hungary.
Can’t include links, but it’s on the Experimental Farm Network
It’s also a trait i’m interested in for the same reasons, a good fence crop is excellent. I’m wondering if I can plant & Prune Black Locusts so close together than they form a Fence/Wall to block out deer? When they see a Thick wall of Greenery, they may not see past the wall where my veggies would be.
Plus a well pruned & Open to Sunlight Black Locust wall would probably double the yields of flowers for me to eat as a Bonus.
That’s also a good trait, altho I don’t yet understand the mechanism in Black Locust that cuase suckering. Kind of important to understand if I’m selecting for that trait.
However… If my pruning game is on point, maybe it won’t be so bad? Summer Pruning can really knock down the trees so they don’t get out of control via shifting the hormonal balance away from vegetative mode. Plus by pruning after flowering is done, I won’t have any seeds in wrong places & maybe there’s a chance for a 2nd flush of flowers (Altho I think Winter is required for more flowers again).
Indeed! All the Black Locust flowers I’ve tried tasted like Vanilla flavored Sweet Peas with floral notes. The key is to harvest at peak freshness when succulent and healthy looking not slightly wrinkled or shriveled & with the bright yellow spot on the upper petal (If it’s dull brown, it’s no good).
Can’t as I have no Land to grow the cuttings on. I can only collect seeds which are storable long term for when I move off-grid & get some land. I’m ambitious but also patient.
Nice! Super curious on what has been growin on since those 20 years. Report back on what you find.
That’s a very good thought, were the suckering ones able to make more seeds after borer attacks?
I’d assume they would, because the trees generally don’t get that large here before they fall victim to the borers and they would probably die if they didn’t sucker.
There are likely a number of different cultivars over there by now. For several decades, black locust has been the most important timber tree in Central Europe, Hungary in particular where roughly 30% of all trees there are black locust. Because of that, in Europe it’s the timber of choice for outdoor furniture and decks.
It’s also a major honey plant over there, so perhaps there are floriferous cultivars as well.
Probably not. You’d want a more bushy, thicket forming plant for that, not a tree. Deer in general are really good at getting through brush though, so it’s unlikely any kind of living fence will keep them out unless conditions (light in particular) are just right, regardless of species.
I’d wager the opposite. Suckering in woody plants tends to be triggered by damage to the main stem and/or opportunistic wherever there’s a gap in competition. A row of black locust out in full sun that get regularly pruned is probably going to sucker extensively. I don’t know for sure if that’s the case, but that would be my expectation.
Winter chill hours are typically required for flowering, yes. Occasionally, you’ll see some woody plants flush a small second bloom later in the year, but that is generally a stress response such as after unusual drought, effectively the plant thinks it’s going to die so it blooms one last time. Some bradford pears on well draining soil not far from where I live bloomed in late summer this year for example, but that was because it didn’t rain, at all, for all of June. I don’t think you could reliably trigger such a response and even if you could, you’d soon lose the tree to disease or winter as it would be seriously weakened.
A complication is the fact that the borers are symbiotic with a lethal fungal infection. Around here in humid zone 8, locust species don’t get more than a few inches in diameter before getting either killed to the ground or killed outright by the borer + fungus combo. As a result, black locust is very rare around here, verging on locally extinct. Ironically, both the borer and the fungus are native, so much for “native species are in balance with each other” theories… But anyway. In drier and colder climates it seems like the fungus is not quite as bad (locust trees live longer and get bigger in those climates so I’m hazarding a guess that the fungus is less favored). So, if you are in an area where the borer attack is likely to be followed by a fatal fungal infection, then no, the suckers aren’t likely to be going to lead to more flowers, but if you are in a better area, then it is quite possible, though I’d still think that a tree that doesn’t lose a year or two of growth would probably support more blooms than one that got cut back.
Just my $0.02.
Perhaps you might want to look into shrub-forming or herbaceous species if it’s the blooms you want, as those forms tend to bloom more. There are a huge number of species that are in the same family that you might could look into. Baptisia has dozens of species, and there’s Desmanthus, Chamaecrista, Dalea, Lespedeza, Lupinus, Caesalpinia, Cytisus, etc. and of course the trees in Gleditsia, Cladrastis, Ormosia, Myrospermum, and Albizia. Not all species in these are hardy, of course, but all of them do have members that can grow in the eastern US.
Granted, these are legumes we’re talking about, and the pea family are absolute masters at chemical warfare and is probably one of the most risky families to consume, up there with the Euphorbia and the Ranunculus families. So many different poisons from alkaloids to toxic proteins to isoflavones and rotenoids to straight up neurotoxins and proteins that cause lupus… It’s not a family I’d freely consume, even just the flowers. I’d only eat the ones I know are safe, and only in the way they are known to be safe. Even the “safe” ones you have to be careful with. For example, raw and undercooked kidney beans are poisonous and can cause internal hemorrhaging, and a diet too high in fava beans, which contain an enzyme that destroys red blood cells, will give you hemolytic anemia, certain wild beans and alfalfa, including alfalfa sprouts, contain a toxic amino acid that is a powerful insecticide and that in mammals can cause severe autoimmune disease, the list goes on… Eating random parts of plants in the bean family is kind of like eating random mushrooms. It’s a little bit risky.
I’m confused by this tree. There are multiple resources that state the vegetation is mildly toxic to humans and livestock. Then you see postings like this talking about the flowers being edible or other resources citing black locust as a good browse species for livestock.
The bark, leaves, and seeds contain a few different poisons. Robin is a toxic protein that is similar to ricin found in castor beans. Robitin is a toxic glycocide, not to be confused with the medical drug with the same trade name. Robinine is an alkaloid that may have some specific therapeutic uses at low doses but is toxic in higher doses.
If ingested, it may cause death in humans and livestock and pets. Depression, weakness, dilated pupils, vomiting, bloody diarrhea, weak pulse, coldness of arms and legs, paleness, and shock.
One of the cool things about hybridizing plants is that the offspring won’t always just be a mix of the observable traits from both parents. By making the crosses, you don’t simply mix and matching traits, but you actually also create some novel gene combinations which can result in differing expressions from either parent. Given enough luck and effort, it’s totally possible that you could end up with variations which allow for selection of a broader range of colors (or other traits) than what were in your starting pallet.
Edit: Given that edibility is a primary goal, I would recommend only including species with documented history of safe culinary use in your crosses. Of course, if you had access to laboratory services to test for various toxins you could also include less edible species and then test the offspring to select against those which inherit the ability to synthesize those toxins. That would not be a practical approach for most plant breeders though.
Oh wow! I wonder why so many consider it a trash tree in the U.S.? Different cultures & Societies appreciate different things I guess? But none of those cultivars are bred with delicious flowers in mind right?
OHHH… So they are kind of bred for flowers unintentionally. Super Nice.
Well thicket style & low is the way I was planing on pruning it. Altho I may also have Sorghum & Litchi Tomato planted in the mix to make it EXTRA THICC… I remember Matt Powers used Sorghum & Amaranth to Hide his Garden, so that’s where the idea came from. I know deer struggle with 3d field of view but they can jump HIGH & thru small holes if they see food on the other side.
Yea, probably, altho the suckering kind of bush/thicket is what I’m going for. I don’t want to climb ladders to harvest flowers.
Very interesting observation. So no rain is like a Dormant season of it’s own. Is this why Hot Weather Decidiuous trees are found in deserts where that trait is useful?
Yikes! Sounds like there needs to be Some Black Locust breeding programs to find a resistant varient. Native is such a subjective term, origen is much more objective. Nature will balance everything out eventually as all plants will eventually become “Native”.
Yea, summer pruning works great on Trees that fruit on 2nd year wood like Apples, Pears, Peaches, Plums, Cherries, ect. Since summer pruning forces dormant buds to grow again, it gives those twigs to from flower buds like as if it was the 2nd year growth. Idk if it works that way on Black Locusts but Summer Pruning makes Persimmon Yield like CRAZY at least according to Ross The Fig Boss on YouTube.
Indeed, but so many don’t have edible flowers that taste Super Good like Sweet Vanilla. Only Black Locust is able to yield lots of Delicious flower I can strip harvest & is a perennial tree. Wisteria flowers are also another good candidate, but I haven’t tried the flowers yet, I’ve heard they taste good too. Lots of Sweet Peas (Lathyrus spp.) would also fit this bill as they have Edible Leaves/Shoots & Flowers. Even Beans (Phaseolus spp. & Vigna spp.) & Peas (Pisum sativum) have edible flowers but it’s not worth sacraficing the beans & pods.
Indeed altho Solanaceae is also Crazy. Fabaceae has so many good edible but also so Many TOXIC plants. Even Black Locust is VERY TOXIC, the only part that’s safe is the Flowers & according to Forager Samuel Thayer the small beans also edible cooked but too small to bother with.
Indeed there are also Flowers that aren’t edible of that family, like Crow Vetch ( Securigera varia) for example, which are poisonous according to Forager Samuel Thayer. Also the Entire Fabaceae Family actually consists of like 5 sub-familes all on 1, so no wonder the edibility is gonna be all over the place, who put 5 plant familes into 1 .
Indeed! So many parts have to be cooked! Every Species is on a Case by Case Basis of edibility to assume. This ain’t no Brassicacae family of which nearly all species are edible (with few exceptions, or if you can handle the spicyness).
Indeed! I don’t eat Random Parts of the bean Family. Every part I research thoroughly of each species. I don’t forage for wild mushrooms (Nature’s Cleaners), cuz I live in an urban/suburban environment. Thus I basically know nothing about them, all my Foraging Knowledge has been on Plants exclusivly for this reason.
Oh Black Locusts isn’t mildly poisonous, It’s Very Poisonous! The Leaves are extremely Poisonous. The only part that’s safe to eat raw are the flowers & that’s it. Idk about the browse species thing, but I know Goats have stomach’s built like a machine.
Meanwhile I gorge myself on them when in season, they Are addictive AF.
Experienced Forager Samuel Thayer has tried Cooking the Bean seeds of Black Locust, they are edible but not worth the effort. The seeds are far more valuable to plant.
That’s my favorite part! The Novel new traits that show up. Sometimes traits skip a Generation. Also when you do very wide crosses, totally unheard of traits may show up as well. Let’s also not forget Horizontal Gene Flow, which is Gene Transfer without Sexual Hybridization, and what’s cool is Horizontal Gene flow can be Induced & Trained via Mentor Grafting. That’s how Russian Plant Breeder Ivan Michurin was able to make Intergeneric Crosses, for example he crossed Aronia x Sorbus to make × Sorbaronia.
For Black Locusts, I may have to search outside the Robinia Genus for other flower colors. It could be the other closely related genera may also have edible flowers but not 100% sure. I gotta find a Robinia Phylogenic Tree to compare how closely related species are.
However if I’m lucky like you said, totally new colors may show up! But perhaps also new flavors too!
Indeed, All of the Robinia species have Edible Flowers, there’s only 4 & they all hybridize easily (It’s a Species Complex, or functions like one). Forager Samuel Thayer has tried all these speices, He said the Black Locust was the best tasting species.
The Lab Testing would be useful but your taste buds are powerful. However If I plan on Breeding Potatoes for delicious Melon Flavored Berries, I’d probably want to test to make sure the Alkaloids are in extremly low levels or not present at all. Lots of Solanaceae Fruits get rid of their toxins apon ripening like Tomatoes, Black Nightshades, Litchi Tomatoes, GroundCherries but Potatoes may not follow this rule. I still have lots to learn, very thankful for the Guides on Cultivariable.com for Potatoes.
Also Cucurbitaceae Toxins are very well behaved for the most part, the bitter flavors are the toxic part & it’s SUPER Obnoxiously bitter. You can easily breed out bitters in Melons, Squash, Cucumbers, Watermelons, ect. It’s how I discovered a New Wild edible in the woods, the Wild Chayote (Sicyos angulatus). I actually found 2 forms of the plant, a Bitter form & a Non Bitter form. Guess which got it’s seeds saved . That wild Chayote had some fantastic Squash Flavored greens with Really Good Texture. I litterally had to stop myself from eating the whole plant cuz I wanted to save seeds .
Apparently, Maine has thought them to be so invasive they put them in the banned species list. yet southern and central Maine has naturalized stands of them for decades.
How sad . I knew my Favorite Flower was hated but not this much…
Osage Orange I knew was used for that purpose but Flying Dragon Trees? What are those, I’ve never heard of them. Do you know the scientific name so I can look them up?
Oh fantastic! That’s a species I’d love to get seeds for. I’ve heard prisons plant these as a barrier. They really do make hard to penatrate thicket, plus also yield edible fruit. Does the fruit of Flying Dragon cultivar taste any good? I’ve had hardy orange before & it was just a pleasant trail-side nibble.
Would plantin Black Locust with Trifoliate Orange be a good idea? To make my border extra spikey & thick?
Seeds for trifoliate orange are pretty widely available and cheap. There are lots of folks selling them on Etsy for example. As for Flying Dragon, it’s a little harder to find seed but still not too difficult, though be aware that the contorted habit doesn’t always pass down in seedlings if that’s something you care about.
Flying Dragon tastes pretty much the same as regular trifoliate orange. Some people consider trifoliate edible if processed, but that’s more of a minority opinion.
The fruit are true citrus fruit, so there’s that, but they are small, very, very seedy, sour, and the juice/flesh is fairly bitter while the pith and peel are very bitter. The peel in particular but to an extent the flesh as well also contains a sticky, gummy resin that is very unpleasant to deal with and quite bitter tasting. Some studies indicate that it contains some mildly poisonous saponins, which seems to check out since a lot of people report getting sick to their stomach if they eat too much trifoliate orange without removing the resin. You can remove the resin from the juice, either by letting it settle naturally over a day or so and draining off the juice or by refrigerating the juice to speed up the settling. Once the resin is removed, trifoliate orange juice differs a bit variety to variety, but generally it’s a very sour juice that tastes a bit lemony, a bit grapefruity, and a bit like turpentine-based cleaner like Pinesol.
There is an uncommon variety that only recently made it into the US called Poncirus Plus. It differs from other trifoliate orange cultivars in that it doesn’t contain that bitter, potentially poisonous resin. Stan McKenzie in SC might have them available, I’m not sure, and The Mulberries on the Tropical Fruit Forum has been working to get some grafted or rooted but I don’t know when he’ll have any available. I’ve got a few scions of that one that I grafted, but they’re still quite small and again I don’t know that I’ll have seeds available for quite some time.
Depending on your zone, there are also some hybrids between trifoliate and regular citrus, a lot of them actually. The Tropical Fruit Forum is the best resource on those, as well as a few threads here like the one called “Citrus Tolerant of 0 F” or something along those lines.
Perhaps? I guess it would depend on light and soil conditions. Again, black locust is a tree, it’s going to want to get tall. Trifoliate is much more bushy, but it’s not especially fast growing unless you have a long growing season or are willing to fertilize–though some of the hybrids are quite vigorous (but, again, some of them are also much more tree-like, especially the ones with grapefruit and pumelo parentage). Flying Dragon is considered “dwarf” and is pretty slow, I wouldn’t count on it making a tall hedge anytime quickly. Pure trifoliate, planted in mass and fertilized, would probably take a few years to fill in. But once it did, yeah, deer probably aren’t going through that. Deer also don’t generally eat trifoliate orange (even the leaves are quite bitter and have a weird chemically taste) nor do they bother most citrus in general (in general, but I have seen them defoliate some cultivars).
As a bonus, there are several native butterflies that feed on citrus. Swallowtail butterflies in particular are known to use citrus as host plants (while citrus aren’t native, other members of Rutaceae are and swallowtails commonly feed on them so the jump to citrus isn’t much of a jump).
If you are in a warmer part of zone 7, which your profile indicates you live in, some citrandarins like US-942 or Bishop might suite your purposes. Citrandarins tend to be fairly dense with a spreading habit and plenty of thorns, and the fruits, while still not great, are considerably better than pure trifoliate.
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. That wild Chayote had some fantastic Squash Flavored greens with Really Good Texture. I litterally had to stop myself from eating the whole plant cuz I wanted to save seeds 
.
. I knew my Favorite Flower was hated but not this much…
