Wow thats a lot of info. I read it but im busy at work now ill reply back after work. Thanks 
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Do you try to save the mycelliums of fungus is that why you collect the forest soil?
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Nice post!
Maybe you don’t have the problem where you live, but here we try to remove all the old roots we can from the hole, especially oak. This is because when it dies the fungus thrives, and ones like Armillaria root rot, sometimes called oak root rot, can also “decompose” your living plants too. We has enough root rot as is, so we don’t risk it here.
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We only have issues with maples and planting.We keep away from those.
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Yeah, there are benificial fungi and bacteria in forest soil and it’s often essential for trees to adapt to the local soil. Also if I don’t have compost or enough manure I added more forest soil and especially the stuff under old rotten fallen trees.
That’s where I generally dig my forest soil, if I can roll the trunk I roll it away collect everything plus the really degraded stuff that comes off the trunk, and roll the trunk back to let it keep rooting and protect that bare and unfertile subsoil that I uncovered.
Note: as pointed out to me it’s probably best to avoid oak roots, beech roots, and black walnut too.
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There’s almost no oak in the forest close to my parents home, perhaps that’s why, but I will remember that, especially since oak and beach (which are generally diseased there) can harbor Chinese chestnut blight too.
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If you have trouble with trees, I believe you can solve the problem with your holes, not treating the entire area.
My parents and I lost most of the trees we planned in the past, now I have about 99% survival rate with purchased trees after ~3 seasons.
I like to dig, well I don’t like the digging so much but it’s exercise, a hole 2 feet deep and 18 inches wide, make sure to save the top soil and sod in a separate pile on the uphill side, the rest of the soil can make a very around your hole with the worst soil on the down hill side, pick rocks as you go, gravel isn’t a bad thing as long as there’s not too much.
Then break up the bottom with a long crowbar (spudbar, digging bar) throw in some road kill or animal carcasses if I have some lying around, if not manure and weeds or unsprayed grass clippings that deep, manure fresh or not is okay once I add the next layer: CHARCOAL!
Charcoal is the only permanent fertilizer and it’s pretty easy to make yourself, especially this deep you can even not worry if it’s still good a good amount of ash in it. Then use the crowbar to break the corners out, making the hole square and letting that layer of soil cover your fertilizer and charcoal, you can do another layer of manure and put your sod on top, upside-down if there’s a chance the tree roots will touch it already, then some of your decent quality soil and eyeball so that the hole will be filled about 2 inches lower than it originally was.
Then you want to have more charcoal, old manure or compost, and some forest top soil for the microbiome and I even intentionally dig up a few living roots and throw them in deep enough so that the root will die but the fungus will hopefully survive.
So you mix that up with your decent soil )and poor soil if you need) and start filling your hole, you might already need to have your tree in the hole, you can usually put your crowbar over the hole and tie your tree to it with the graft above the actual ground level, spread out the roots, and you can even put the longest roots to the corners and cover them with soil until they stay in place, then start pushing soil in and sifting it around the roots. Dig up the sod from the top side of your hole, this will allow water to flow into your hole later, and put the sod in the corners or to hold long roots in place or stand up your tree, touching roots with the soil side, not the grass side.
Now is a good time to put in your stake, I usually put them on the south and maybe north sides of my hole one or two heavy branches and then I put a steel 4 foot fence around it about 16" in diameter with the opening onto the stake on the south or Southwest side so low growing branches can easily be saved when the fencing gets removed.
If you are running out of fertile soil mix ball it up around the roots and use the more poor soil close to the walls of your now square hole.
Hopefully this will get you to the soil line on your tree and about 2" below ground level, you can push that poor and Rocky soil into a U shape facing up hill and now soak the hole.
Fill it with water to mud in your tree, now you can untie your tree, and remove your crowbar, which should be above the soil level still.
You may have a sink holes in a corner and you can fill that in with more soil, or top it all off back to 2" below the ground when you’re done.
Now you can put your fencing and wire the opening to the stake on the south/Southwest, and to your other stake if you have one, then I tie the fence with cloth loops to my tree from 2 or 3 sides so that the tree stays in the middle of the fencing.
If I had more fencing or if it were cheaper I’d use bigger fencing tubes, but 16" seems okay as long as you are not too worried about keeping the trees super low and dwarfed, and you’re willing to cut the fencing over cutting the branches.
So I know this is an earful, and not an exact science, and probably overkill, but almost all of the purchased trees I had survived, except my Hosui Asian pear, which I will replant eventually and spray with copper sulfate against fireblight, and a plum that the deer got and I geniusly decided to graft over to apricot, and when I plucked off a bud from the plum, it died, my bad.
Also in the first year I watered them ever three days in the hot sunny times, unless we had rain, then I would give them until we had two or three really hot days before watering again, in the second year there was less watering, but still a decent amount in the hottest part of the year, and basically everything purchased survived, I have seedlings and small grafted trees I did that did not have such high success, but are doing fine generally.
I hope this helps!
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I recently checked back at @39thparallel website about scionwood for Clark’s Crab, as it had been out of stock. There are now a few sticks available (as of Feb 1).
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It may be somewhere in this enormous thread, but im wondering if anyone else has actually eaten this apple yet that can tell us about its eating quality? I have no doubt its good, I’m growing one myself, I’d just love to hear from anyone else’s experience.
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digging isn’t a option here. 8 years ago i tilled my 10’ x 20’ rasp. patch for the 1st time. i almost killed myself . i took over half a truckbed full of fist sized rocks and bigger out of there and added peat, horse manure and other organic amendments. i also planted 2 trees in ground at the same time, which each one took a hour taking rocks out and busting the sides so the roots could go in the heavy clay here. way too much work for 2 trees. i backfilled with my clay mixed with peat and compost. i then mulched heavily with wood chips. they did ok the 1st year but by mid-summer the next they started dying in july. i went up to each one and grabbed the tree by the trunk. both of them came out with barely any effort. looking in the hole there was water puddling. i realized then that most anything grown in ground would suffer the same fate. so then i started planting on a 4’ x 4’ piece of heavy cardboard right on the grass. just plopped the roots on it. covered/ tamped with well-draining soil then mulch. everything grew beautifully and in 3-4 years the pile slowly flattened to the level of the yard. been planting like this ever since with many dozens of trees/ plants put in without losing any… all my veg. and some bushes are growing in raised beds. I’m done digging here. don’t mind the work but when you’re using a pickaxe more than a shovel and feel like a 19th century coal miner, its not worth that much work to plant something just to have it die anyway.
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Mine fruited for the first time this past season. Late ripening apple (for my area), golf ball sized or a litttle larger, thick skin, juicy, somewhat comparable to a late season Trailman Crab is the best I can give you.
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Finally got my scionwoods! I was a bit nervous, due to my shipping associate’s delay. By the way, very nice packaging by 39th Parallel Nursery.
Location: 
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If anyone’s still looking for ‘Clark’s Crab’ scion, I’ve got about 8 sticks left (about 8" each, sealed with wax on cut ends for freshness). I had originally gotten this variety from 39th Parallel (looks like they still have one order of ‘Clark’s Crab’ scion left over there too).
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I’d eventually like to offer some own root trees of ‘Clark’s Crab’, but so far it has shown resistance to pushing its own roots when the graft union is buried. I will continue to experiment. (Obviously it’s fine to grow grafted trees, but I really like when fruit trees can regrow true to type from the roots if they get damaged).
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You have some trees that caught my eye. Curious as to how long it took the sorbus domestica to fruit for you.
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Since, it’s a different topic I’ll p.m. you.
doesnt look like your sending scions of clarks crab anymore ?if you are id like to get some.also planting for deer if you have any other 2" apples that are heavy every year producers.more than happy to cover costs. thanks ron
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Yates, Hall and Horse are all medium or smaller prolific annual producers.
The first 2 can be fairly sweet as animals typically prefer. Horse only sweetens late but can hang a month over.(September)
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But he’s in zone 4
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