Best would be if someone just packaged Pristine by itself for small users. I had great results using the Bonide product when I would be spraying insecticide anyway, but I’ve gotten in on an Indar deal here for the reasons you mention
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That’s incorrect, but whatever, if I don’t need it I can use Infuse, and used to near the end of my spray schedule. I need the insecticide as much or more than the fungicide.
It is target specific, you couldn’t be more wrong. PC is hitting me hard when I spray for brown rot. One year every fruit had a hit. I add insecticide to Infuse for the Japanese beetles. My fruits (or leaves) need protection from insects almost the whole season. By the end of July usually I don’t need it anymore. SWD is changing that now. At one time I could stop using it, but not anymore. Well except for peaches they seem to leave them alone. This season I’m trying eucalyptus oil for SWD. Oh btw eucalyptus is what I use against white fly, works amazingly well. I use it for indoor applications on my house plants for various problems, like fungus gnats etc. If i spray something it’s for a reason every single time. Thank you so much Bonide!!!
If they did, I would be adding insecticide every time I use it. I think the product is perfect for my needs. And when I don’t need it, I use Infuse for Brown Rot. Works out perfect. I love it! Not only is the product effective against Brown Rot, it works great on PC too, I could not ask for more.
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Me and Cornell. Of course pyrethroids are not target specific and of course they are harder on beneficial insects than the insecticides Cornell approves to protect tree fruit. They just happen to be relatively soft on mammals- even Imidan is much kinder to beneficial insects than pyrethroids. I can’t argue with you about the level of your own insect problems, but it is possible that you’ve killed off insects that might be able to reduce them.
it’s not like their is just one problem Codling moth and OFM are here too. So are many others too, stink bugs, thrips etc. I mentioned the insecticide is in it because one really needs to know that before using the product. I don’t think we disagree here. I feel any insecticide is harmful, maybe Imidian is less harmful to benficals, I have my doubts about that though.
Stone fruits are only a small part of my fruit growing and I try to grow fruits I don’t need to spray. It’s becoming almost impossible with SWD and other new threats that seem to appear yearly.
It has been studied by Cornell and others and Imidan is relatively soft on mite predators- if you search for it you can probably find a chart. This is an important issue with commercial growers in the northeast where mites are a constant challenge at most orchards and can lead to drops in productivity.
With all the orchards I manage that use various products for pest control, I have the opportunity for a broad comparison of the results of treatments.
Part of the problem for homeowners is that you guys are suggesting products we are not supposed to use. Well at least the forms you mention. it would be helpful to list any consumer versions too. I have managed to have clean fruit using only home use products. It’s not easy for sure. Where can i get Imidan for home use? Otherwise the advise is not useful to many of us. The last thing i want to do is break the law.
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Your input on pesticides widely available to home growers is very useful. I hope my information is useful also- certainly I’ve introduced a few forum members into using Indar.
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Another factor is if I called Bonide, they would say I’m doing everything right. It’s hard at times to sort through the stuff. Imidan may be better for beneficials, but I look at any chemical you introduce as having potential harm. I’m thinking long term use. I have considered getting rid of stone fruit for that reason.
I’m moving more towards organic methods and all of these are considered harmful and extremely dangerous by many organic farmers. So yes I have my doubts about Imidian being that much better, it’s still a toxic chemical released into our environment. I agree it may be better if you need beneficial mites, I myself do not need them.
I have been talking by email to this guy, and he would say Imidian is dangerous, If you doubt me email him and he will give you an earful!
Living Resources Company
Steven Zien
Steven M. Zien TNS
President
QAL, IPM Innovator, California Certified Nursery Professional,
River-Friendly Landscaping EcoLandscaper,
ReScape California’s Stewards of River-Friendly Green Gardener Program Instructor,
IPM Advocate with Our Water Our World,
EcoLandscape California founding member
Ecological Horticulture Consultant, Speaker and Educator
Garden Writers Association member #1165
organiclandscape.com
http:tinyurl.com/EcoSoil
916/726-5377
I have been talking to him on how I could go organic, it doesn’t seem possible to me, yet I want to explore this option and see if I can at least be more organic oriented when possible. I think I could replace all insecticides, the fungicides, not so much.
I like pyrethroids as I feel they are less harmful to the environment. They are based on an organic. Plus as far as I can tell I can’t legally use imidan. It’s not a viable option for us homeowners.
Keystone who sells it says this
Imidan is now a placarded poison product. It must be shipped haz-mat so at this point we are not shipping it anymore.
The label says to stay out for 7 days and not to handle fruit for 14. This is very dangerous stuff and is harmful to humans. Read the label yourself
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I have to agree on Imidan! I would not trade an insecticide harmful for other insects for one that is dangerous to humans and mammals… But I also agree with Alan’s view point on beneficial insects. It is a dilemma that we (home gardeners) are in, and part of it is because some commercial pesticide producers ignore the home garden market and do not provide some of their safer (for both beneficials and humans) products to us…
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I get the sense that Indar is a product we’re not “supposed to use”, but it doesn’t seem to be actually forbidden - they just make it damned inconvenient
Yes I think these are OK to use. hard to get as you say.
Alan knows his stuff, and has helped here a lot. I’m just trying to get by with the limited options I have. I don’t endorse any product, just making the information available. Each person has to decide what works in a responsible way and it’s not always easy or clean.
Yeah well most insecticides are harmful to insects. Even if some mites can take it or less die, little Johnny and Lassie just got poisoned! So I wonder what the postage would be sending Hazmat grade material? Doesn’t matter I’m sticking to the pyrethroids which are a lot safer to use and are very effective. So it looks to me Imidan is not target specific either since it can harm mammals even kill them. The label warns it’s fatal if swallowed. No such warning on pyrethroids. I think i would rather kill the beneficial mites than my dog.
I agree completely about the Imidan. I don’t believe its a good choice for a backyard environment based on the label. The REI for farm workers (covered by WPS) for use east of the Rockies is 4 days, but 7 days west of the Rockies. However its 14 days for other folks! It can not be sprayed withing 25 feet of a residence, commercial building or recreation area. It has the most restrictive label of anything I use so I only use it one time - at petal fall. Imidan is easier on most beneficials than many alternatives, but its a lot harder on mammals.
The broad spectrum nature of Pyrethrum based insecticides just about guarantees a mite flair on apple trees in my area because it kills many mite predators along with other beneficials. Its a better choice on peach trees.
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Rick, thanks that is very useful information. I don’t grow apples, but it’s great to know.
Does anybody know if malathion would be a good choice on apples? Or any suggestions for backyard apple growers? I ask because people ask me all the time, and I usually weasel my way out of an answer for apples and pears which I do not grow. I also need fungicide info. I will research the site. I just was asked yesterday about apples.
All of them? Many exist I use Lambda cyhalothrin. Last I looked we are talking 18 different chemicals. Are they all broad spectrum? This class of chemicals seem extremely popular. It is reported they are used on 120 different crops.
Edit:
OK I saw some bulletins and Lambda C. is one that can cause outbreaks.
Thanks Alan and Rick for pointing out these possible problems.
I’m still going to use it as I have had no problems, and it works so well.
Scott pointed out that instead of plant guard one could use Elevate for the fungicide. It is even better than what’s in Plant Guard. But not labeled for residential use unfortunately. At least the products I saw. That still leaves me blank as to what insecticide to use if I don’t use plant guard. When i use Infuse I have added Malathion when needed. Other options would be great, if anybody has any suggestions I’m all ears. For PC, codling moth OFM, and stink bugs. Also cherry maggot. Japanese Beetles and SWD.
Until peach scale comes to town- it arrived in my area about 2 years ago as far as me seeing it. Now I see it at multiple sites.
Imidan is dangerous because people tend to be careless. REI’s are based partially on the potential of bare moist skin rubbing against sprayed plants- they don’t bother to vary it according to use and Imidan is labeled for row crops where workers can be in direct contact with sprayed plants. I don’t consider it dangerous if you keep it locked away between uses and wear a dust mask if you are going to cut open a water soluble bag of it and dish it out by the TBS. Once it’s mixed with water it isn’t very dangerous- the label doesn’t call for tyvlar of a mask. I’ve never heard of anyone being adversely affected by it so I assume such cases are rare and due to extreme carelessness.
Believe it or not, about 25 years ago Gardens Alive, the organic products company, used to sell it because it was the softest, safest, EFFECTIVE fruit tree insecticide- Surround hadn’t been invented yet. Commercial growers considered it very tame because their main go-to was Guthion.
However, for home use I prefer Avaunt, which is not restricted but the label insists it has to be used only to grow fruit for sale. The Imidan label doesn’t or didn’t use to say this- it just said “not for residential use” which apparently means within 100’ of a residence.
Again dangerous to mammals, oh well I can’t win. I worry about my dog. Toxic to birds which often steal fruit (sweet and tart cherries).
Actually the new label says when spraying apples or peaches the material is not to be used within 25 feet of a building “occupied by humans” and other locations including outdoor recreation areas like parks when using a “ground boom or Airlast sprayer.” I’m not sure how the rules work if the material is sprayed using a hand wand where the drift would be less. However, the 14 day re- entry still applies to non farm workers. The label also says that the bags should not be broken, but used whole. My label requires a respirator when spraying from “motorized ground equipment”. Overall, Imidan has the most restrictive label of any pesticide I use. It works great on PC and plant bugs and I don’t worry too much when I use it, but I use a full face respirator a Tyvek spray suit, I don’t break the bags and I only spray it one time at PF.
I do often see Imidan as part of an IPM program designed to reduce the kill of beneficials and I also see it referred to as a “soft” organophosphate. I agree that Imidan is much less toxic than Guthion., but I believe the registration for the Guthion was revoked for tree fruit and some other crops a few years ago. Guthion is some very toxic stuff. I consider it to be the same category as Paraquat. .
I also use Avaunt which I believe is safer than Imidan based on the Caution label, the 12 hr REI and no respirator requirement. It has the only label I remember seeing that specifies “not for home plantings.” I thought it was a “reduced risk” pesticide - whatever that is, so I can’t understand why it’s use in a home orchard is off label
http://entomology.tfrec.wsu.edu/wopdmc/2002PDFs/Rep02%20Chemical%20McKinley.pdf
If anyone is interested in this product I suggest you read that. Drew, I especially wish you’d read it before offering more of your insight on the product.
Reading the comments about the sticking agents used by some posters. Per the Nu Film 7 you have to use 4oz per qt of water. That seems to be a very expensive spray to use. I realize it makes the other sprays stick longer ( only protects against a 1" rain) than just washing off with each rain shower. I have a few questions.
Does each person using these sticking agents use this much product per gallon on water?
Do you use this sticking agent mostly in the rainy spring or during your own areas rainy season?
Or do you use it with each spraying to make it last longer on the tree?
Am I reading the “per dose” application incorrectly?
I appreciate your help in trying to figure out if I am understanding the use and proportion ratios.
Wow, I believe the label calls for about a 4 0z to a cup to 100 gallons water, so unless Nu Film 7 is a more diluted product than Nu Film 17, someone made a huge mistake. You can usually find labels on-line and per acre seems to usually be a little more than double the per 100 gallon rate.