Fig species crosses and intergrafts

General Fruit Growing
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in a 2012 japan study, researchers took pollen from ficus erecta and put it in the ficus carica figs of 4 different cultivars… ‘masui dauphine’, ‘houraishi’, ‘ischia black’, and ‘boldido negra’…

Shortly after the cotyledons emerged, many of the seedlings prematurely developed three or four true leaves, and then stopped growing and died. Therefore, the number of surviving hybrid seedlings was very low 1 year after sowing (Table 1). Many of the hybrid seedlings that did survive showed weak growth (Fig. 1b) such as those from the interspecific hybrid between ‘Ischia Black’ and F. erecta. On the other hand, some hybrid seedlings, especially those of ‘Boldido Negra’ x F. erecta, had comparatively vigorous growth (Fig. 1a) and lived for more than 4 years.

that’s a serious disparity in cross-compatibility. but why?

check out this 30 year old paper by william ramírez-benavides of the university of costa rica…

Hybridization of Ficus religiosa with F. septica and F. aurea (Moraceae)

in florida, natural hybrids between ficus religiosa and ficus aurea were found.
and in the philippines, natural hybrids between ficus religiosa and ficus septica were found.

turns out that most ficus species are 2n x 26. basically they have the same chromosome number. so in theory it should be possible to cross quite a few of them.

except, can we say it’s possible to cross carica and erecta? well…

maybe it will help to try and visualize things…

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carica’s shape reflects the fact that some carica cultivars are a lot closer to erecta than others. boldido negra is close enough to erecta that crossing them produces relatively vigorous offspring. whichever carica cultivar is the furthest from erecta won’t produce any offspring. compatibility is a continuum.

what about erecta’s shape? from wikipedia, erecta is distributed from eastern Himalayas, Assam, Bangladesh, Vietnam, southern China, Taiwan, Jeju Island of South Korea, the Ryukyu Islands, and Japan. clearly each country’s erecta can’t be equally compatible with boldido negra or any other carica cultivar. the bigger the disparity in compatibility, the bigger the shape of erecta relative to carica’s shape.

i included the shape of ficus septica. its location (completely arbitrary) would mean that it’s more compatible with carica than erecta. but perhaps its too far from carica to produce viable offspring.

one shape i’d really love to see is that of ficus pungens. this species has very long hanging clusters of small figs. if it could be successfully crossed with carica, what would the hybrid look like?

imagine living 2000 years ago. each continent in the world had a shape, and you might wonder about their shapes, but you couldn’t see them. the shapes were unseen, hidden, unknown. but now, 2000 years later, all the continent shapes are known, thanks to countless brave explores and cartographers.

each ficus species has a compatibility shape, and i wonder about their shapes, but i can’t see them. their shapes are unseen, hidden, unknown. how many years until all the ficus compatibility shapes are known, thanks to countless brave hybridizers and “cartographers”?

just like each ficus has a compatibility shape, and each continent has a shape, demand also has a shape. what’s the shape of the demand for a fig category on this forum? the shape is determined by 2 things… 1. the number of people willing to donate for a fig category, and 2. the amount of money each person is willing to donate. this shape exists, but we can’t see it.

what if we used voting to decide whether a fig category should be created? if we did so then we wouldn’t uncover a shape, we’d uncover the length of a line. well, if only one person voted for a fig category it wouldn’t even be a line. it would just be a point. in order for it to be a line at least two people would need to vote. the more people who voted, the longer the line. a long line of people want something for free? how is this useful to know? it really isn’t.

if only one person donates for a fig category it wouldn’t create a shape, but it would create a line. how long would the line be? how big of a sacrifice is this individual willing to make for a fig category? this is useful to know. if this individual is willing to make a big sacrifice, then it’s worth figuring out if they are crazy or if they know something that we do not.

don quixote was willing to make a big sacrifice of time and energy attacking windmills because he thought they were giants. obviously he was just crazy. except, maybe he wasn’t crazy. maybe his eyes worked better than everyone else’s eyes. but it just seems highly unlikely. imagine how different the story would have been if he had only been able to see the giants thanks to special glasses.

just recently a new fig forum was created… figfanatic. it was created as a result of a big disagreement with a big decision made by the owner of the old fig forum… ourfigs. just like growingfruit was created as a result of a big disagreement with a big decision made by the owner of gardenweb. all these decisions were made without seeing or knowing the shape of the demand. same with the decision to create a category for cider on this forum. the decision could have been made based on demand, but it wasn’t.

@Richard is currently researching the genetics of ficus johannis, which is very closely related to carica. if this forum had a category for ficus, would he have used it to help find samples of johannis to do dna tests on? i dunno.

the fig cambrian explosion hasn’t happened. it will happen if lots of people start making lots of fig crosses. this is more likely to happen if there’s a category for figs on this forum, which should only exist if there’s enough demand for it.

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Excellent review and discussion.

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Curious as to how the other forum was created from a disagreement?

Let’s fix what you say happened but with the truth this time.

Someone that started another forum after betraying his friend of 10 years or more that needed him. So he jumped ship to be his own captain. A few rats on board scurried out the scuppers thinking it was a sinking ship. But alas it was smooth sailing and rat free after. It happens a lot today unfortunately.

Ourfigs is a much more pleasant place now that the small handful of

Surprised at you though as I don’t even know why you would bring that up as an analogy for a post like that here on Growing Fruit. It doesn’t seem very logical or ethical but obviously you have a motive so good luck with that.

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“Species” is a Linnean term, defined by the morphology of a wild population. Landraces and singleton hybrids are not considered species. And just to be complete: “cultivars” are named instances of a taxon.

For example, Golden Delicious is a cultivar of landrace Malus x domestica.

Whole genome genetics has so far been unable to distinguish species of the same Genus based on genetic content alone. The same is true of cultivars of species. I look forward to working on this problem. At the very least, I am providing the research community with the sequences to do so.

BTW, figs emerged in the Mesozoic.

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An interesting topic (fig hybridization) but I’m not surprised to see @epiphyte using it as an excuse to try to argue the umpteenth time for that idiocy with using money donations to decide what sections there should be on a forum. Just give it up already! No one wants that crap.

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I read the paper you linked (at least the parts that pop up, not sure if thats the whole thing or not). The most interesting thing to me would be if the Strangler Fig’s Wasp will pollinate Ficus carica. I’ve looked into it before, and usually all I can find is “fig wasps usually have a mutualistic relationship with one fig species” which isn’t really an answer. So there either hasn’t been research on it, I’m not looking in the right places, or they can’t and people just don’t bother to record “no”. Overall it would only matter if you were trying to grow figs that need a wasp, and you would only grow those here in Florida if you were planning on hand pollinating to begin with, so its not something that really matters. But it is interesting.

I do plan on getting ficus sycomorus seeds (for rootstock mostly) and I already have strangler figs. So in 3-6 years time if my ficus sycomorus flowers and fruits, and theres a crunchy wasp in the fruit, I’ll be sure to mention it (or I’ll forget).

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@sharq
The Strangler figs in California are not pollinated by B. psenes.

Also, fig wasps are slightly smaller than Argentinian ants. They usually sheds their wings when entering a fig, so you’re unlikely to experience a fig wasp crunch. There are other critters that invade Ficus “fruits” in warmer climates, so I’d open them before eating as a precaution.

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So f. carica’s wasp doesn’t pollinate them, so its unlikely that f. aurea, f. citrifolia or f. benghalensis wasp would go the other way. Not impossible but unlikely. As far as I know, those are the only figs that have wasps in Florida (our two natives and an invasive). I didn’t really think they would, but it was interesting thought.

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Even though growing fruit looks and feels basic compared to houz/ gardenweb, I absolutely love it.

Never joined gardenweb and honestly, didn’t even know it was houz until this post. It looks too chaotic over there plus the ads…

Simple looking forums are dying these days but i feel like simple type forums have everything already vs websites that look like gardenweb.

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@sharq
There are entomologists who study this in detail, some of whom specialize in symbiotic wasps of all existing Ficus species. I’m sorry but I don’t follow their literature. I wish I could be of more help.

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out of my 4 varieties of sycomorus, only 1 is graft compatible with carica… ficus cocculifolia. i think that this is the same variety that florida fruit greek referred to as “echo” and that cody cove farms has been selling. based on my relatively small sample size, the chances aren’t very good that a random sycomorus variety will be graft compatible with carica.

cody cove also sells ficus opposita cuttings, and there are seedlings for sale on figbid. so far the cocculifolia seems a lot happier grafted onto carica than the opposita.

right now i have seeds of two other sandpaper fig species starting to germinate… ficus ulmifolia and ficus exasperata. i’m really excited about eventually testing their compatibility with carica. there are over 100 species of sandpaper figs. how many of them will be graft and/or cross compatible with carica? which one will be the most compatible with carica?

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ficus cocculifolia used to be its own species, but then a taxonomist decided to lump it together with sycomorus. why? morphology? dna? i dunno, i haven’t read the paper. i’m assuming that this paper must exist.

but for me personally, it really isn’t a minor detail that ficus cocculifolia is graft compatible with carica, unlike my 3 other types of sycomorus. this doesn’t feel like an arbitrary distinction. it feels like a really useful distinction.

on the underside of a cocculifolia leaf, right where the leaf connects to the petiole, are a couple of prominent red dots. is this a really useful distinction? maybe for identification. but it seems purely superficial unlike compatibility.

dna isn’t superficial, but deciding the threshold is entirely arbitrary. anyone with more than 2% neanderthal dna is a hybrid. hmm… well… why 2%? why not 3% or 1%?

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Did you get it from Echo or Cody Cove? You don’t really accidently run across the same variety of a species. I think its more likely that its just a hard graft to take (unless you did get it from them or a source who got it from them). 1 in 4 isn’t exactly a telling sample size (assuming you’ve only tried once, if you’ve tried hundred of times then its a different story). Also 25% of a random sycamorus being graft compatible is pretty decent odds. Considering we’ve had a 0% rate of carica success in our soil, its considerably better odds. And figs are delicious and worth the effort and I like collecting things.

Just saying the Cali wasp doesn’t pollinate Strangler Fig was more help then 4 or 5 google searches. Do you know what type of Strangler Fig you have out there? I assume f. benghalensis since banyans are the famous ones from India, but theres a few different species.

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ficus carica and auriculata aren’t graft compatible, but they are cross-compatible. ficus carica and erecta aren’t really graft compatible, but they are kinda cross-compatible. so even if a variety of sycomorus isn’t graft compatible with carica, they still might be cross-compatible. so i want to grow all my sycomorus varieties so that when they fruit i can try crossing them with carica.

i have a 15 gallon ficus sycomorus (variety ‘jsn’) with 3 other varieties grafted onto it…

cocculifolia - graft compatible with carica, seems to grow even during winter, figs almost the size of auriculata figs

gnaphalocarpa - produces relatively big figs on relatively small branches. i’m guessing that this will be the 1st of my sycomorus varieties to produce figs.

shikma balami - medium size figs ripen without pollination (parthenocarpic)

i’m pretty sure that shikma balami is female, but not sure about the rest. in theory it should be possible to pollinate male sycomorus figs because they also have female flowers. in their natural habitat the female flowers of male figs have baby wasps inside them, so they don’t produce any seeds. but since we don’t have that wasp here in the united states, it should be possible to pollinate the female flowers in the male sycomorus figs.

for me grafting is fun, and useful, and informative, but it’s a means to the end of hybridization. hybridization is where we’re going to make entirely new figs that are better, in one or more ways, than existing figs.

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Aroma and date-like texture of sycomorus fig bred into carica would be nice.

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what’s the difference between 1. a fig forum (ie figfanatic) and 2. a fig category on growingfruit?

one difference is, in order to participate in the fig forum you’d 1st have to register and become a member of that forum. since you’re already a member of growingfruit you wouldn’t have to register to participate in a category for figs. registration isn’t the biggest obstacle but it is an obstacle.

functionally though there’s not much difference. when you go to figfanatics you can see a bunch of threads about figs. if growingfruit had a category for figs, you’d be able to see a bunch of threads about figs.

since there’s not much functional difference between a fig forum and a category for figs in a fruit forum, it’s interesting that you strongly object to donating for a fig category, but you don’t at all object to donating to a fig forum.

a. the demand for a fig forum matters
b. the demand for a fig category doesn’t matter

it’s 100% illogical. it means that you don’t actually appreciate why demand matters. demand matters because otherwise the supply is going to be wrong.

x. figfanatics supplies a caprifig category
y. ourfigs does not supply a caprifig category

what’s the demand for a caprifig category? we don’t know. if we did know then we would know which fig forum is making a mistake.

fact is, nobody benefits from a fig forum, or any forum, wrongly supplying categories. this forum supplies a cider category but it doesn’t supply a fig category. is this a mistake? it is, if we’re more interested in figs than cider. the only way to know if this is the case would be if we were all given the option to donate for the categories that we’re most interested in.

the idea of supplying categories regardless of the demand for them is very counterproductive.

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@epiphyte
The discussion threads on hybrid persimmons et al. are doing great. Perhaps you should start one for figs and tag members you believe will be interested.

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That statement lacks specifics and is consequently very misleading.

This is an overgeneralization. There are at least 12 sexual forms of F. carica in a single wild population of significant age. About half of them are caprifigs, the others are solely female, and none of them are “male figs”. Further, not all caprifigs produce ample female flowers suitable for wasps.

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There are multiple species here, but I haven’t paid attention to the taxonomy.

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how great could it be doing, given that i haven’t participated in it? or maybe it’s doing great because i haven’t participated in it? i have a chocolate persimmon grafted onto my fuyu and i’ve been wondering if it would be worth it to sow the seeds. i saw the hybrid persimmon thread but didn’t click on it because it felt like i’d have to do too much wading through marginally relevant material.

on a fig forum i really don’t read every thread. i doubt that i read even 10% of the threads. it would be a huge waste of time for me to read every thread since i’m not remotely interested in every single aspect of figs.

on this forum i doubt that i read even 1% of the threads. if this forum had a category for temperate fruit i would rarely visit it. because there isn’t a category for temperate fruit, scrolling to find relevant threads is a slog. then again, why should this forum have a category for tropical fruit when there’s an entire forum dedicated to this topic? then again, that forum doesn’t have a category for subtropical fruit.

the supply of categories should be determined by the demand for them.