Hello Everyone,
I did a bunch of grafts this year on my apple trees and they seem to not be taking.
I think I did them about a month ago (around May 15)
I think I did the grafts too late. I am in Michigan.
Should the be taking by now?
Thanks
The apple grafts I did in mid April have over a foot of new growth on them. They took two weeks to start to grow.
Ribs…if they haven’t done anything yet, haven’t broke bud, no leaves etc, I’m afraid to say they aren’t likely alive. Still, I’d give them more time, there are a lot of variables as to when they might break and take.
You say you done a “bunch” of grafts…all apple? How many and where did you acquire the wood?
Post some photos if you can. We all learn probably as much from failure as we do from success. How big were the leaves on the host tree when you grafted? Are the trees young, old or very old? What grafting technique did you use?
If you done a lot of apple grafts and none take you have to be doing something very, very wrong. Photos could identify what those things are.
Good luck!
Hello and thanks for the responses.
- I bought the scion wood from Skipley Farm http://www.skipleyfarm.org
- I did about 6 varieties. Maybe 12 grafts total.
- I mostly followed techniques that I learned watching Stephen Hayes. I used grafting wax and cut up freezer bags just like Stephen does. I mostly did single and double cleft grafts.
- I think I got the techniques OK but maybe the timing wrong. It seems like it might have been a little late. If I remember, many of my trees were in full bloom.
- We have had a ton of rain this year. More than anyone can remember.
I’ll try to get some pictures up.
I think you’re probably right…you were too late. I’m still surprised that you haven’t had at least some push from at least some of them. I have a suspicion that much energy is devoted to flowering, blossom development and even fruit development during bloom. Someone more knowledgeable than me can probably answer that.
I made exactly 2 apple grafts at bloom, all others were done much earlier (largest leaves the size of mouse ears). I had a 100% take on all the early apple grafts (22 in total) and just 50% on the 2 done at bloom and early bloom at that. I have quite a bit of growth now on many of them. Last year I tried a very late apple graft and it failed entirely, so 0% take. This was way after petal fall and was just experimental. I also had 100% last year on early grafts.
I guess my point is that in my limited experience and much study, the ideal timing is just as the old adage about leaves and mouse ears suggest and then goes down at an exponential rate from there depending on weather etc.
I will say that although I like Hayes videos and have seen I think all of them, I think the parafilm tape is a much better idea than freezer bags and wax…especially for the novices like us. No question it works ok though.
Hello Appleseed
I did go out and get some parafilm for next year. Also, I think I need much more practice.
I have been looking around at all these autumn olive bushes on the back of my property and thinking I will take tons of cuttings next year and graft them back onto themselves just for practice before I cut them down.
When you use parafilm does that mean you don’t need wax?
What rootstock was it on?
And in general the time of year does not matter as much as the intrinsics of what you are doing… I just grafted some last week and expect them to take. The trick is to keep the buds moist. You can accomplish that by putting a plastic bag with a wad of damp paper over your scion and sealing it at the bottom. then cover it with a dark paper bag, but don;t seal the a paper bag. what you are trying to do is create a nice humid environment without turning it into a green house. Every couple of days,take the paper bag off, and unseal the plastic bag so it can breathe and re-moisten your paper if needed and then reseal. Once it leafs out it would be beneficial to provide it with some dappled shade, or shade cloth for a few days if you are dealing with brutally hot sun.
The reason we tend to benchgraft at a certain time has to do more with the problem of the buds desiccating if it gets to warm then any limitation imposed by time… And of course there is a trade-off between other growth, fruit and the scion you have to consider if you are not benchgrafting proper.
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Hello,
I am not bench grafting so this doesn’t really apply.
I grafted new varieties onto established trees in the orchard.
Thanks
Actually it does apply. I am still grafting onto growing trees now following the afore mentioned bagging technique.
You may still be fine. Some grafts take a while to callus up. Plus the buds might not be the best ones on your scion wood. Mine took about six weeks this year. With hard freezes the last couple years things have grown slow on a lot of trees. If they are shriveling up and looking dry they are done. If they still look like live wood your fine leave them alone. Last year I had three that I thought failed but in August they grew out four inches. I’ve read where someone said they grafted and they didn’t grow at all till the next spring. I’ve never seen that happen though. A month isn’t long at all especially when you start them late.
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I think the other problem might be that I used a lot of single cleft grafts when I should have used a saddle graft instead. Didn’t watch enough Stephen Hayes I guess.
I don’t see any problem with the timing. I started grafting apples this year in late April and continued through about 1.5 weeks ago in early June.
I made 19 apple grafts during mid-May (5/9-5/18) and have success on 18 of them. I was a bit suspicious of the scionwood for the one which didn’t take (it was wrinkling a bit). They averaged about 16 days to bud-break. But at the extreme there was one which just woke up during the last week, after a bit over a month. So, 1 month doesn’t mean that the graft won’t take. But, if none of them have taken after a month I wouldn’t be too optimistic.
The April apple grafts were 27/28, with similar times to take, except the first 10 grafts, when things were cooler (22 days vs 16).
I think it is more likely bad scionwood. Often, even when the graft is bad, the scion will leaf out, then die. My April failure did that. Then, when I made a few other grafts from that variety, they worked. The one that failed in May (and looked a bit wrinkly) never leafed out and I decided to not bother with grafting more of it.
On the technique front, I should mention that I found grafting wax to be a pain in the rear-end. It was hard to work with, tough to keep warm, made a mess, and was ugly long after the graft healed. I used it the first year I grafted (2013) and have stuck with parafilm since then. I still see wax on some of my early grafts, but the ones from a year later have healed almost perfectly.
It’s too bad you didn’t have wood from a few sources (maybe even yourself- cut in Feb and save in a zip-lock in the fridge). If you did, it would be easier to determine the area to work on (scionwood, technique, etc).
I should add that I agree with Fluffy Bunny- bench grafts are much less forgiving. I’ve had problems with them in the past. This year, I was very surprised to see good success with them. In this case, I yanked out 7 already leafed out roostock suckers, potted them up and grafted to them.
I haven’t needed to use his bagging technique, but I bet it would help if the weather gets too warm. Scott has suggested using aluminum foil, with the reflective side out, which seems like a good idea.
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That wont matter if you seal the cleft up. The double just helps it callus over faster. It’s good to put your scions in a cleft on a bit of an angle too so your sure to cross the cambium layer. If they aren’t in contact with each other they wont take.
It’s not too late. You could graft today and have them take. Stephen Hayes saddle graft is much less secure/reliable then whip and tongue. Cleft is fine if you get it deep and have good contact on at least one side. My basic rules are: must be fast to get cut and put together, Better to be fast then to have open to air in order to improve cuts. must have good alignment on one side, and take what you get on the other. A poorly fitting W&T can be made to fit better by pushing it deeper even if it means the ends overshoot the opposing side. Use parafilm and wrap the whole thing. and rubber bands over the graft. If you have ends sticking out do not have rubber band on the excess. have only a couple buds on the scion. smaller target for damage.
Yeah…you got it. No need for wax when using the tape. I agree with Bob about the wax. I think it is mostly a hold over from the golden age when good sealing tapes, latex based sealants etc just weren’t available. I cannot think of a single advantage wax might have, but I can imagine it being a total pia to work with.
As far as timing, I think it is important for a whole bunch of good reasons. The later warm and often drier weather isn’t as conducive to grafting as earlier spring. Also the tree is often carrying large amounts of foliage later (and even apples) which steals from the amount of growth pressure available to the graft. Leaf chewing insects are more active later and on and on. Scionwood at this point has also been held in storage longer increasing the chances of dessication or mold issues. None of this is to say it cannot be done however. I just grafted more plums just this morning here in Z6. I adjust my expectations accordingly for these late grafts expecting many to get burnt up before enough vascular tissue is formed to compensate for increased transpiration.
Ribs, I also wanted to mention that my personal experience as well as that of many novices here seem to favor the cleft graft over any other in the beginning. Further, the saddle graft is the one lone graft I’ve heard negative things about. Stephen Hayes himself states in one video he was abandoning it in favor of other methods. I think his primary reason beyond failures was a weakly joined union.
I don’t even try to match my clefts, they are generally vastly different in size and I just match one side. I do not attempt to cross the cambium, but rather match it, although the crossing is a good idea I guess.
Electrical tape over top of the parafilm at the joint does wonders for pulling the joint together tightly and protecting it from landing birds etc.
I have bees wax that’s soft enough that I don’t heat it up to melt it. I just scrap it out and spread it with a screwdriver and smooth it with my hands. I love the stuff. I also rub the terminal cut end in it first then roll it in my fingers like putty. Then graft it. That way I don’t have to mess around with the pressure on the graft. I like using electrical tape straight on the scion wood and root stock. It gives great strength and stretches tight for a great seal. I don’t have problems with it pulling the bark because I take it off carefully plus I have wax on my fingers when putting it on so the sticky part isn’t that sticky at first. Even if it does stick it can be sliced with a razor blade and left on till it falls off.
All this is true, but there is a lot of room for error with apples and pears. My last set of grafts from 6/5 is just starting to leaf out now (7 of 8, all in the last 2 days). I did nothing special with them- just the usual cleft grafts, pre-wrapping with parafilm, and structual support (and keeping it tight) with green garden tape (non-sticky).
If you are grafting something like stone-fruit, it is a lot easier to fail and too early could actually be a problem- I got much better takes on the ones I did during warmer weather.
Update to the stats from my last post- 2 of the mid-May grafts that I thought were takes didn’t make it. That still leaves the stats at 16/19. Both the failed ones were on newly planted B9 rootstock suckers, which leaves my success with those at 5/7 (still way better than I expected). Since they were in pots, I put them out of direct sun (in the garage) for the 12 days. I didn’t do anything to protect the top-working grafts on mature stock that I did at the same time and all but one seem to have worked. Of course, the rootstock (suckers) were facing a lot more stress, as I had just pulled them out of the ground (in full leaf) like weeds and potted them up…
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I use toilet bowel wax for anything I can’t cover with parafilm, rubber bands or electrical tape. It’s easy to work with and doesn’t run like some sealers do. Best of all, you can get ring for $1.50 at Home Depot.
Thanks for all the info everyone.
I really should get out and take some pictures. I think my problems are a combination of things at this point.
I think I may have grafted to far down the branch rather than graft at the base. Also, I think I didn’t wrap the tape tight enough. It sounds like you guys wrap the tape really tight.
The most frustrating thing is that I have to wait until next year.
No need to wait until next year- I was still grafting earlier this afternoon. If you’ve used up your scionwood, I should still have some left.
Grafting too far down the branch (further from the trunk, right?) isn’t a big issue- it just means that you need to be carefull about pruning in the future. It also limits the size of the grafted branch a bit. But, it can help you choose a spot where the diameter of the branch matches the scion perfectly. It also means that you can get more grafts on the same tree, which increases the chances of at least 1 taking. You may need to go in later and prune out the parts of the branch that don’t have the desired variety…
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